Nirvanna The Band The Show The Podcast
A show where we deep dive into every episode of Nirvanna The Band The Show in an attempt to book Matt Johnson and Jay McCarrol as guests.
Nirvanna The Band The Show The Podcast
Web Series: The Banned/The B-Day; AKA The Cloverfield Podcast
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
We stare straight into the suns that are “The Banned” and “The B-Day.” Topics include: Cloverfield, Michelle’s travel history, and our dream guests to get on the show (Werner Herzog, we know you're listening).
World Cafe Interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LXDGK7elFk
Email: nirvannathepod@gmail.com
Bluesky: @nirvannathepod.bsky.social
Instagram: @nirvannathepod
Voice memos: www.speakpipe.com/nirvannathepod
We Nirvana the Band.
SteveWelcome to Nirvana the Band The Show The Podcast. The plan? Podcast about Nirvana the Band The Show, the movie, and everything in between. I'm Steve and I'm here with my co-hosts. I'm Michelle.
KitAnd I'm Kit.
SteveWhat's our goal with this show? To get Matt Johnson and Jay McCarroll to guest. Haven't happened yet. They have not reached out.
KitNope.
SteveNot that I've tried, but they haven't come to us.
MichelleIt would be nice if they just did that.
KitBut also Where's the fun in that? It's weird that they haven't sensed it. Like in in the universe, like they haven't felt the vibe and reached out to us organically. That feels off to me.
MichelleI like to imagine that at some point during one or both of our recording sessions so far, they've both just felt like a shiver and not quite known what it was. And that was us reaching out to them across the universe.
SteveMatt just sees like specters of us like float through the room just sitting at our desks.
MichelleBut I hope so. I hope we're haunting him like the ghosts in a Christmas story.
SteveAs we talked about in the first episode, maybe this is a Vin Diesel situation where they know about us and they're avoiding us like the plague. Anything's possible.
KitI want that cease and desist. Give it to me.
SteveLook, I know we've talked about Matt and Jay being our white whales, but I don't want to ignore the other important people that make Nirvana the band really as special as it is. You have Jared Rabb, Luca Tarantini, Evan Morgan, Matthew Miller, Jay's dad. All people, you know, we're going to be talking about as we go. You know, all these people work really hard and they they are a huge part of what makes the whole thing. If you go through the credits, there's more writers than just Matt and Jay, despite what people think. You know, there's script supervisors. There's so many of these folks that make this weird little thing possible. So I just want to throw out there, we talk a lot about Matt and Jay, but if anyone involved with Nirvana the Band, the show in any way want to come on, we would be honored to have you here. Just letting you know. We love you all. And I mean, for the sake of continuity with our other episodes of McFarlane, you can come and talk about Frank Sinatra, but only Frank Sinatra. And while we're putting our intents out into the universe, I had a thought the other day. Do we all have a dream guest that we want to throw out there that if for some reason they listen, we would want to have them on? Because we've talked about for a while it's just gonna be the three of us, but later on as we go, we're probably gonna have some guests along the way. So do either one of you have a dream guest? And who would your dream guest be?
MichelleI have a dream guest. And mine is a long shot, but I do think it's it's not impossible. My dream guest would be Werner Herzog.
KitYes. And I'm I'm seeing the vision.
MichelleI feel like I don't need to explain myself, but also I should explain myself, which is I I had this thought specifically because of an interview that I saw uh some of this weekend or this past week, um, where Werner Herzog is talking about his feelings on artificial intelligence. And I would like to read, if you haven't seen it, briefly, a quote from that interview where he says, and I I tried earlier today to workshop my Werner Herzog impression. I will not subject you to it. Can't do it. Pretty bad. Um, I'll leave that to the experts. But he said, I've seen movies, short films completely created by artificial intelligence. Story, acting, everything. They look completely dead. They're stories, but they have no soul. They're empty and soulless. You know it is the most common, lowest denominator of what's filling billions and billions of informations on the internet. The common denominator, nothing beyond the common denominator, can be found in these fabrications. And I was like, yes. I love Werner Herzog so much.
SteveHave you read his memoir? No, I would love to. The audiobook is excellent, and it's a whole lot of his musings on art in that way, and that makes me go, yeah, he would be a perfect guest for this podcast.
MichelleI feel like I've heard him talk, maybe it was in about the memoir, but it's like somewhat recently, he had a line that was about like human nature is made up and defined by chaos and imprecision. And like that specific idea is exactly why I would love to force him to watch an episode of the show and just like join us in psychoanalyzing and like figuring out what is at the heart of Nirvana the Band, the show. I think you would really enjoy it. I think you would get a kick out of it. Uh, Werner Herzog feels like a person who is like down to look at something and weigh in on like some random web series from 2008, or maybe we'd bring him in for the Vice Land show. I don't know. But just like really the movie. Yeah. Yeah. We'll we'll set that as our guiding star for when we get to the movie. Um but I think it would be fun. I think he would have a lot to say, and I'd love to hear him say it. How about you, Kit?
KitYeah, I mean, I have I have two. If we are trying to get out of the Nirvana the Band like orbit of people who've worked on the show or the movie, um I the first person I would like to bring on would be, I think, the fan site owner of the Nirvana the Band fan site. I am obsessed with whoever it is out there who is running this thing because one, it's so well made. It's uh I believe it is a recreation of the official site that they had before it was shut down. And I would love to hear all about the archiving work that they've done, like tracking down all of these 10 billion deleted scenes and extras and all of that and compiling them and also fighting with whoever it is neon, elevation pictures, whatever, who keeps taking down all of this stuff. So if you're out there, if you're listening, love to have you on the show. We can make sure you're anonymous. I will give you a really cool voice changer. Um yeah. Yeah. We won't snitch on you. Like, come on the pot.
SteveI've always secretly wondered if it is someone involved with the show.
KitReally?
SteveBecause that's a lot of knowledge. I mean, if it's not, that's unbelievable. But if it is, also much respect.
MichelleI would I feel like there probably is one person who has like sort of a guiding role, but I'd also suspect that it is a very dedicated group of people cataloging all the like minor differences between versions and all this like very detailed minutiae. Um, but I would love to hear about that process.
KitSame. Like when we were watching one of the episodes for today, I remember thinking, I remember Matt saying something in this episode, but it's not in this version. And when I went through the notes, I realized, oh, that's because it was in a completely different version and they've like cataloged it. It was in a different edit of the web version versus the DVD version. I was like, who who's who's running this website? I want to have a conversation. How are you doing this? Do you sleep? Do you eat?
SteveWe will reimburse you for a Guy Fawkes mask if you want to wear it while recording. Ooh, yeah. Or any novelty mask. Maybe a wooden mask. Ooh.
MichelleYou mean like from the hit film The Mask? Uh I was thinking more like from the hit uh Nirvana the Band, the show web series. Fair. But spoilers for episodes to come.
KitWhat?
SteveSo uh I thought of two. Uh one is Griffin Newman from Blank Check. He has talked so lovingly about Nirvana the Band. That's one. But the other one is adjacent. But one of the best thinkers about comedy and culture is uh Connor Ratliff, host of George Lucas Talk Show. Um, you know, incredible improviser. And if you ever hear him talk about the media he cares about, it it is like so fascinating and such a deep dive. Like he recut Sully into something called the crash cut because he wanted to make the film Sully more interesting. Like just he thinks about culture in such fascinating ways. I I don't know if either of you have ever watched George Lucas' talk show. No. So the setup of the show, it's online, it's a live show, you know, there's two different versions of it, but in the the live talk show version, which you can find on YouTube, it is him as George Lucas having a talk show and Griffin Newman as Watto as his sidekick. But it is a bit, of course, and he has like running gags, but he tries so much to get into the mind of George Lucas and also have these deeply sincere interviews with the guests. And it's like that's that pop culture brain that I am fucking fascinated by. So I actually think my dream guest would be Connor Ratliff. Uh, I only also thought of him because every time I see a Nirvana the band Instagram post, it's like liked by Kit, Michelle, Connor Ratliff. I was like, so Connor, if for some reason you're listening, we would love to have you. That would be incredible.
KitYeah. Um is he Canadian by any chance?
SteveI don't believe no, he's from the Midwest.
KitOkay, because my my second person would be literally any Canadian.
SteveUm Justin Trudeau.
KitYeah, lit like any if you were Canadian, come on, come on the show. Uh I feel like we're culturally appropriating Toronto a little bit, being all three Americans here.
SteveBut I went to a wedding in Toronto once. Was it nice?
KitI don't know, I was 10. Oh. Was it nice?
SteveNo, it was on my 10th birthday, and I was really angry the whole time.
MichelleUh yeah, I think we should ideally someone from Toronto who can weigh in on Toronto things. But anyone in Canada, really.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
MichelleMike Myers, hit us up. I think that would be really fun.
KitYeah.
MichelleEugene Levy, get over here.
KitWhy not?
SteveMartin Short. Or tall.
MichelleMartin Short is Canadian?
SteveHe did well, he at least did the uh Canada section of Epcot Center forever. They wouldn't let you do that if you weren't Canadian, I have to imagine.
KitCan I let you guys in on a a secret?
MichelleYeah. Of course, always.
KitI w while we while Steve, you were listing Canadians, I I realized that um something that I always take for granted is I always think Tom Hanks is Canadian. And so I was about to suggest Tom Hanks, but I don't believe he's actually from Canada. I just assumed that he was because he seems to be a Canadian energy about him, but I don't think he is.
SteveAny look up Tom Hanks talking about Oakland, because he's from Oakland. California? California? That's not a Midwestern man.
KitThat's not Canada.
SteveYeah, like there is an interview when Toy Story 4 was coming out where he was talking about playing spades with people from the neighborhood, and Tim Allen was baffled. It's so good. And um also the movie Freaky Tales last year, which is a tribute to Oakland. Tom Hanks is in it as a snooty video store clerk purely because it is a movie about Oakland. This is brainbreaking knowledge. Tom Hanks is one of those guys that's like curated this persona that is sorry, he was born in Concord, California, but he is from California and talks about Oakland all the time.
MichelleOkay. I feel like, stop me if this is what you were about to say. He would like you to believe that he was born at the exact geographic center of the United States, which is like somewhere in the middle of like it's it's not quite in Kansas or something. It's in a weird spot. But that's he wants you to think he was born right in the middle. And he has accomplished it, because if you had made me guess before you revealed this to me, I think I would have guessed Kansas or Kansas adjacent states.
SteveNot to sound like a stan, but Connor Atliff's podcast, Dead Eyes, is based around the fact that Tom Hanks fired him from Band of Brothers for having dead eyes.
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm.
SteveAnd it's a it's a it's a beautiful podcast about um failure. And eventually he actually got Tom Hanks on the show, and it is the greatest interview with Tom Hanks of all time, because he's like, here's all the ways that I'm a piece of shit. Yeah, behind closed doors. Tom Hanks saying that? Yeah. He's like, behind closed doors, I would say someone has dead eyes. It's not supposed to leak the producer's room, but that's the shit we say about actors. Like, and I was just it is so eye-opening of you know, the thing we see is him, like the Tom Hanks thing, but it is only part, and there is this much like darker and it's the part that's what Chet Hayes came from. Yeah, he had to come out of somewhere. Mm-hmm. No. Look, there's remember Tom Hanks brought us my Big Fat Greek Wedding. He he's the one that boosted that. We wouldn't have Neovardalos, and that does you don't think Tom Hanks when you think my Big Fat Greek Wedding.
SPEAKER_05No.
SteveYou're right. Opa. Neovardalos, come on the podcast.
MichelleI think we could add her to the list. And I think she would be great.
SteveYou both know I have a Nevardalos fixation.
MichelleWe had uh was it a full weekend where Steve made us watch every single My Big Fat Greek Wedding?
KitAnd I think it was my Big Fat Greek weekend. Yes. It was my big fat Greek weekend. I think you were also threatening us with the television show.
MichelleWe did watch the television show. No, we did. Michelle fell asleep.
SteveIt was awful. So we watched the TV show. On Saturday, we watched one and two, and on Sunday we watched three and the entire season of television.
MichelleI remember parts of the first episode of the TV show, and then I was dead to the world and woke up and was very confused.
KitI apparently blacked out the entire television show.
SteveMichelle went dead silent for about four hours and then went, hey guys, sorry I fell asleep.
MichelleIt just lulled me into a coma, I think.
SteveAnd we're not getting Neavartalos now, I'm just saying.
MichelleI'm really sorry. I loved I loved my big fat Greek wedding. One. Two was fun. Three, I'm glad that you got to go to Greece. Mm-hmm. I'm really sorry for being mean about your TV show. Please come on the show, Nia.
SteveIt's fucking wretched, but please still come on the show. Anywho. Uh before we get into these episodes, I think we got a follow-up on last week. Uh Newman's own lemonade. Hold tight.
MichelleThey're taking a sip right now. Pretty good. Yeah. Charlie. Much like you said. Was that the first sip? Is this live first taste?
SteveI bought this on Monday and it is Sunday now, and it's been sitting in my fridge all week. I just opened it before sitting down.
MichellePerfectly chilled.
KitIncredible.
SteveDelightful.
MichelleGreat. I'm so happy for you. Michelle, have you watched Robocop? I have watched Robocop. Robocop fucking slaps.
SPEAKER_00Hell yeah, it does.
MichelleI'm really mad that I went 35 years without having seen RoboCop. Uh, but now I have and my life is better for it. I think I I never sought it out because I think I had imagined that it was just like kind of a dumb, schlocky action movie. And it is, but also it's it is schlocky, but it's smart. And it's political and it's like gross and funny, and I was so delighted by it. Even though I did have to watch the first 20 minutes twice, because uh initially we put on the version that's streaming for free on YouTube. Which, if you are on a journey like me and you were trying to watch Robocop for the first time, don't watch that one. It appears to be a TV edit, um, and it's really hiding a lot of details that are cut for time or appropriateness or whatever. Um and so then we switched to a real version, and it was great. It's the best.
SteveJust saying that Arrow 4K Steelbook is beautiful.
MichelleI don't have a Blu-ray player, but maybe I will invest and then the Blu-ray player can follow. I feel like I I recognized the general like shape of RoboCop. I was surprised that there weren't very many, if any, moments while I was watching that. I was like, oh, that's the one thing I know about Robocop. Like maybe the like spinning the gun around on his finger. But like you mentioned the baby food in the last episode, and I had never like that part had never made it towards me. What about shooting a guy in the dick? Uh also, no, somehow. Great, beautiful part of the film. There are so many people in it that I was like, oh, that's the dad from that 70s show. And um uh Bob Morton is I know him from the movie for children, Blank Check, where he is a guy who like hits a kid on his bike and then writes him a blank check, um, which is a treasured movie from my childhood. And I had no idea that he's like a coked out executive in Robocop.
SteveMy absolute favorite thing is that is how you describe Miguel Ferrera, one of our greatest character actors of all time.
MichelleThat is the only thing that I like actively recognized him from.
SteveAlright, Michelle, for homework, you need to watch Twin Peaks, all of it. All three seasons, and Firewalk with me, and the missing pieces.
MichelleYeah. I want to understand the Log Lady. And maybe there's nothing more to understand, or maybe there's a lot. I have no clue.
SteveOkay, understanding the Log Lady requires you reading two novels. Great. So which ones? Uh the the final dossier and whatever the other dossier is of looking at my bookshelf. It's on my other bookshelf downstairs. There's two books that came out around the time of Twin Peaks the Return.
MichelleMm-hmm. And their Log Lady is the protagonist?
SteveNo, their dossier is compiled in all the characters, uh, including the history of the Log Lady. Incredible. Uh you know what? You're gonna be mad at us and in for a bad time if you try and binge Twin Peaks in the next couple of weeks.
MichelleYeah. Uh I will not be doing that. I will do it eventually, but that's a that's a later project. Or Miguel Furrer's other delightful movie, Beverly Hills Chihuahua 2.
KitStone called Classic, belongs belongs on the Criterion Collection.
SteveI can't believe that Beverly Hills Chihuahua survived the first film. Maybe it's the second Chihuahua. Oh shit it's like a Milo Anotes situation. Episode 4, the band. Matt goes blind from staring at the sun for too long and insists on going back to the Rivoli in disguise to return the booking book. The opening credits are based on CSI Miami. How do we feel about episode four?
MichelleI loved it. So good. I I think this is this is the best opening credits that I've seen so far. The editing on it is so good. I like cackled when he put on the sunglasses and it played the big yeah.
SteveMm-hmm. They I on the commentary they were saying that this was like the the masterpiece of credit sequences.
MichelleI agree with that. I think that's I think that's correct. Yeah.
SteveThis Michelle's slight spoiler for what's to come. Watching this delighted me to know when they redo this on the Vice Land show, how fucking far they escalated from just calling out that a child was walking by them. Because that's the one that he's like, look, I'm fine. Uh I hear footsteps. Those are footsteps of a child. A child's coming. And like that's the one interaction with the outside world versus the Vice Land series where redacted and it escalates so far. And I was so excited to go back to the Vice Land show after this. Did you know what I mean, Kit?
KitYeah, no, 100%. Like, I feel like re-watching this has been a struggle in the way because there are so many moments in the web series that are referenced or called back to in different ways that, like, coming in here, I'm like, I want to talk about this, but I'm like, for Michelle's sake, I cannot say anything. So when we get there to the promised land of the vice show, I'm gonna be so fucking obnoxious with all of these notes and things that I've written down to talk about that I could not talk about during this run.
MichelleI can't wait. I feel like there have already been a couple where I'm thinking about stuff that's in the movie that is like being alluded to or redone or whatever. And those are so fun, I can't wait to find out what is yet to come. I can't wait for the kit dossier.
SteveCan we publish it when we're done? Yeah. The final dossier. Yeah.
KitWe can auction off my deeply insane notebook that is getting bigger every single time.
SteveOh, yeah. Uh, just a reminder: if you uh donate $10 to charity, we will read your ad. Speaking of auctioning off.
KitWe will say whatever you want within reason.
SteveWithin reason. Watch we get Target.
KitI thought you were gonna say tar, like Lydia Tar, and I got so excited.
SteveIf Lydia Tar sent us an ad, I would read it.
KitLydia Tar, come on the podcast. Problematic Fave, Lydia Tar.
SteveMy favorite part is that the three of us do stand Lydia Tar. A woman for if she was real, we would text each other cursing her name forever.
KitBut she's father. She's unproblematic fave. Unproblematic fave? My problematic fave.
SteveJust I'm gonna put in the show notes. Lydia Tar did nothing wrong.
KitThank you. Thank you.
SteveUh so the the opening of this episode made me giggle so hard because it's my favorite kind of gag where it's like a smash cut to a plot where Matt just goes, Hey, look at the sun! Smash cut to employ. And it was just it's so perfect and so fast and so well edited that it was it was brilliant.
MichelleThe way that quick flashback is edited, also I was like waiting for him to fall off the roof. It looks so dangerous.
SteveAnd they're like dancing on this rooftop and they're looking cute while doing it. But yeah, it the whole thing seemed quite dangerous.
KitIt was dangerous, but I I loved that they finally got a win. Like we're what, like five episodes in, and all of these plans have gone wildly awry. And so for the first like, I don't know, three minutes of this episode, everything is going well. I mean, yes, we have the establishing shot of the hospitals when something has gone wrong, but they're dancing, they're having a good time. Matt's now looking at the sun, and now we're in present day.
SteveOne thing, you know, that happens in the commentary at the beginning of this episode is Matt is like actively praising the production. I don't know if either of you watched it. And it was really interesting to see how far he's come from being so hypercritical to being like, this looks great, this is great. And I was like, Matt, you're so happy, and I'm so happy for you.
MichelleIt does look great. I like I absolutely agree that the establishing shot of Jay like against the flowers is so nice, and it feels so different from the show so far.
SteveYeah, it it it's a great bit of filmmaking. Made me very, very happy. There's not a ton of plot here, it's a lot of gags. Like the main plot beats of this are they decide that they're gonna try and put the booking book back. Matt is going to pre- is blind from this and is gonna go get food at the Rivoli and try and put the booking book back while Jay narrates from across the street. Like, that's the overall plot, right? Like, basically.
MichelleYeah.
SteveAnd and they uh and the reason I want to go very briefly through the plot is there's so much interesting stuff for how they made this and in the gags. Um they go over who are plants and who are not, and it's really surprising how smoothly who the people are in this episode that they put there.
KitAre you talking about the the Rivoli sequence in the patio?
SteveYeah, the Rivoli sequence, you know, um, the car that hits Matt, because Matt runs out into the street and gets hit by a car. That was also totally like that was somebody with them, and it all blends really smoothly in with the actual like interactions with, like, say, the waiter.
MichelleI was really surprised when we listened to it that the waiter was not also like a friend of theirs.
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm.
SteveI I I thought he was too. And so I just wanted to run through that because I think we're just gonna kind of talk about the stuff that goes on because it is mostly bits.
unknownYeah.
KitIt is mostly bits, but I also think that like the the the sort of the plan itself of them at the patio and like hearing in the commentary, because guess what, guys? I listened to the commentary this time. I can join the conversation. Yeah, no, the um they're talking about the the way that they set all of this up. And I I don't know, I don't know if it's just because I turn my brain off while I'm watching this, or if I if I've just given up on figuring out the puzzle of Nirvana, the band. Like, where it's like, some of this is real, some of this is not real, all of that. Like at no point was I like, yeah, this is definitely a setup. Like, that's a guy that they know, that's a guy that knows. I just have gotten to this point with it now where I'm just like, this is all 100% real. Like, I think I was talking about this a little while ago when we were talking about the movie in the Sea and Tower, where I was just like, at this point, this movie's just a documentary. If you get orbits and like dump it on your thing in your RV, you can go back in time to 2008. Like, I'm not, I'm not solving this. Like, this truly happened. Matt really got hit by that car.
SteveYeah. Well, he did actually get hit by the car.
KitYeah.
SteveBut they just, you know, knew the person behind the wheel. I there is a offhand gag that comes back later that tapped into a part of my brain that I have not come back. I was talking about this at a bar last night, where Jay says something, I forget what it was, and then Matt goes, Deke. That's what you say at the end of a positive message. Yeah. And as someone who was my brother and I used to do Deke for no reason because every fucking cartoon shown in the 90s had that at the end of it, basically. Do you know what I'm talking about? Were you exposed to Deke? Okay.
KitYeah, I remember that.
SteveCool. And him just being like, Yeah, that's what you say at the end of a positive message is that weird half-remembering thing we all do, but turned into a really specific joke. And I thought it was like a really interesting bit of like character work, of just like the mess of pop culture inside of Matt's brain, where he mixed together this is what happens at the end of a positive message, and this like like production logo at the end of a children's cartoon.
MichelleAnd I love that that's just like edited in there, like out of nowhere. Mm-hmm. And and Jay is just like, what are you talking about? Because that's how I felt in that moment. Was like, that sounds really that sounds like vaguely familiar, but what are you what are you saying? And then they showed it at the end of the episode, and I was like, oh, yeah, of course, that thing. But it took a it took like seeing it to be reminded, and also still like, huh? Sometimes the thing just gets lodged so deeply in your brain that you can't get it out of there. And I'm sure that was like the mental equivalent of getting hit with one of those little like reflex hammers at the doctor, and he just he couldn't help it.
SteveThat's why I love them. Like that he's so like seriously like, that's what you say at the end of a positive message. Yeah. And then there's this other fascinating thing where Jay pretends to leave the apartment because Matt's blind, and then Matt starts telling this horrifying story about Jay begging his parents for money. And on the commentary, Matt says, Well, it's kind of true.
MichelleIt made me feel so sad.
KitWell, Jay laughs, so he's like, it can't be that bad.
MichelleI mean, no, like, not even in the commentary, like in in the actual episode, he's like, I'm here to stay, and I tricked him, and then he's just like, You're revealing all of my most shameful secrets, and he has this just a very sad, pathetic look on his face.
KitIt's a real wet cat moment for Jay McCarroll.
SteveYes, absolutely. It was surprising how mean Matt is in that moment. Yeah. Because it's not super in line with him for the rest of it. Like he's aggro, but he's not usually like that level of cruel.
KitYeah, usually when he goes after Jay, it's because something has been fucked up in some capacity, usually around a plan. This is just like very casual, like he's just talking to what was it, Jared?
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm.
KitUm, he's just talking to Jared, and he's like, Oh yeah, Jay doesn't clean his room, his mother doesn't like him, blah, blah, blah. And just like, damn, alright.
SteveSometimes they call me just to talk about him. It was like, it was one of the rare moments where I was like, okay, this bit's really funny, but it doesn't necessarily fit in character with what we've seen of this guy in other episodes. For me at least.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I agree. I could see that.
MichelleAnd then when the door opens again, he just like immediately turns it off and bird, you're back.
SteveYeah, and it is that Jay walked away, which is also really, really fucking funny. I was a little sad. So there's a scene where where Matt, after this whole uh patio heist, is running down the street and slams into a guy carrying a computer monitor and he drops it. So funny. And I had always thought, like, why the fuck is this guy carrying a computer monitor? A very old computer, too. And it turns out that's Matt's brother.
KitOn the way to doing an interview with the United Nations, apparently. Yeah.
SteveAnd I was just I was really disappointed because I I've thought about that scene so much over the years, being like, this weird dude carrying a computer monitor. I feel bad for him. I want to know his story. And I guess I probably should have assumed it was just a bit, but it did, it did hurt a little bit.
KitMaybe the commentary is bad to listen to because they're revealing the secrets, and everything in Nirvana the band is actually real in a documentary.
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm.
KitAnd that wasn't really Matt's brother, it was just some guy with a really old computer on the sidewalk. Lie to me, Kit. You just gotta believe.
MichelleI would also love to talk a little about the Abbott and Costello who's on first, like, where band, wear a band bit when they first get to the Rivoli.
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm.
MichelleUm, I thought it was really funny. I love that like it's not it's not that confusing, but it just but it like keep they keep going as if it is a true, like full who's on first type thing. And it's just so delightful that there wouldn't be a clarifying statement earlier, and they just they just sort of keep rolling with it.
SteveAnd blind Matt trying to like look at the camera to be like, Yeah, I know we're a band. This guy's a fucking idiot.
MichelleYeah. We're a band at the Rivoli, Jared is a cameraman at the Rivoli, you are an idiot at the Rivoli, is one of my favorite lines from this episode.
SteveOkay, I need to ask something, and maybe it was just me watching this on my laptop. Jay says there's a picture of you. It didn't look like a picture of Matt.
KitSo, yeah, so that is a picture, I believe, of when they were breaking in to the Rivoli and doing the To the office. To the office with the scarf. So when I first saw that, I also thought it wasn't Matt. But on rewatch, I realized that it is. And I don't know how to say this, but Matt Johnson, you in 2008 are a very beautiful woman. Like that, I legitimately thought that was a photo of a very beautiful woman. So did I. Okay, I'm not fucking nuts. Incredible.
SteveI was like, what is this babe alert? What do you mean they're banned?
KitLike I have it written down as Matt Johnson, you are a very beautiful woman in my notes. Like, yeah.
SteveOkay, so this really cleared up. So they are banned for real.
KitYeah, they're a band.
MichelleI tried really zooming in on the legal document that they made to see what they used, and they just like only ever show half a quarter of it, and I couldn't figure it out. I don't think they really thought it through. I don't think they did either. I think it was like they Googled legal document and then photoshopped the Rivoli logo on it.
SteveYou know, they said that like this is before like the Rivoli knew who they were. And I I am wondering. So did they like sneak up, tape the band thing, and then like run away with it at the end of it?
KitI think so. I mean, I think also just the way that they were talking about setting it up with Matt's brother going to a job interview, it sounded like this was really early in the morning before the Rivoli opened.
MichelleThey said that on the commentary track that it was early in the morning.
SteveI will admit I watched this commentary uh while quite distracted at the same time, so I may not have gotten all of it. But No, that's okay. What I did get was that Jay forgot where another article of clothing went. Because they pointed out his shoes, and he's like, Yeah, where do those shoes go? So that has now been every episode where he's calling out an article of clothing that he doesn't know where it went.
KitWho is stealing his clothes? And his shoes now, apparently.
MichelleThey did, I forget if it was in the commentary for this one or the next episode, but they did say that this is like two years after the fact. So we do have some context for when they're recording. Obamna! Who was the prime minister in 2008? Was it Trudeau time yet? Trudeau, maybe? Or was it not I'm really giving away my lack of geopolitical knowledge?
KitThis is why we need a Canadian right now. Yeah, a Canadian would know.
SteveYeah, but you know who was in office now? Rob Ford was the mayor of Toronto.
MichelleThe funniest mayor a city has ever had. An icon.
SteveMatt and Jay have called out that he is like the greatest mayor they've ever had for comedy purposes.
MichelleI think it's it's fine when a mayor is insane and bad at their job. Yeah. Rob Ford, Eric Adams. Less funny when it's higher levels of office. We don't have to get into that.
SteveMichelle had a lot of problems with Joe Biden, and she was really happy about how the 2024 election went down. And it's caused a lot of tension in our friendship.
KitYeah, we don't we don't know where she was on January 6th. Um who's to say?
SteveIt's really weird that you change your Instagram profile to shaman.
MichelleUh, I just listen, I have a wolf hood in the closet, and it's for other distinct reasons.
SteveWhere did you get that legal pad you wrote your notes on? It says in from the office of Nancy Pelosi. No comment. I plead the fifth.
MichelleThat's just my friend.
KitYour your dear close personal friend, Nancy Pelosi.
SteveI actually think I actually think that's more damning that you're close personal friends with Nancy Pelosi. I might have rather you stormed the Capitol.
MichelleUh oh no. That's a level of lib I can't stand on this podcast. Uh, just to clarify, I was neither at the Capitol on January 6th nor is Nancy Pelosi my close personal friend. I'm actually pretty sure you may have been in Washington, D.C. on January 6th. I think we still lived in New York then.
SteveWhen did Morbius come into out in theaters?
KitI love that that is the marking point in the timeline.
SteveThat is when I think about when you moved back. It's like, alright, when did Michelle leave? Oh yeah, when Morbius came out in theaters. Yeah. That's why she left.
MichelleIt's a really important The movie was so bad that I had to pack up all my stuff and move 300 miles away.
SteveNirvana the band, the show. I want to talk about the end of this episode a little bit. Mm-hmm. Okay. You know, Matt ends up getting, you know, he he falls over this guy who has a bunch of books, and Matt grabs his book. He accidentally drops the booking book on him, grabs a copy of Treasure Island, is hit by a car. And Matt is in the hospital and it's late at night, and Jay is sitting with him. And Jay just starts like, you know, they, you know, Matt's sharing some his feelings, he's being a little like vulnerable, does his usual lash out thing, and then he just lays there quietly while Jay gently reads Treasure Island to him. It's so sweet. I tear it up a little bit watching it.
MichelleWell that's really nice.
SteveBecause like there's those moments where like somebody you love, like you know you just need to do this one thing to like bring them comfort, and it was just such a clear, sincere moment of their real friendship.
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm. Yeah.
SteveLike that gentleness between friends when like something bad happens and all of the artifice and like jokiness goes away, and you're just present. And I found it to be so like authentically emotional.
MichelleYeah. Like I think you see a little bit of like them, Matt's like complaining about how badly it went, and she's like, I thought you were gonna be like Robin Hood, and sort of smirks to the camera, and then sees that Matt is like actually upset about it, and opens the book and starts reading. And I just thought that was so like lovely and nice, and then there's that like slow zoom out, and he's gonna read the book while his friend falls asleep, and I don't know. It's it's just really nice.
KitIt's so sweet and like intimate and just kind. Like, I know that you know we've we've kind of dogged on well, I mean, I know I have dogged on the show for being like kind of a saw trap and like all this other stuff, but underneath it all, it is like the very comforting little show about like just two best friends. And when you get these moments like this, it just feels all the more special because it's not them like fighting or bickering or like whatever. It's like these two guys that have known each other since childhood, in the show at least, who care for each other in like a prickly little way, but they still care.
SteveAnd I think that zoom out really says that because it's Jared saying, like, no, this isn't a show moment, this is a them moment, and I need to remove myself from this. Yeah. And that was a really good bit of characterization on the camera front. Because you know, every so often the camera crew like pops in as part of the episode, they're not always just filming, and it was like, Yeah, no, I can't be here. This is just between the two of them. And I that's actually what got me. Like that the no comedy, just sweetness. We love it.
MichelleI also love that the thing, something we learned from the commentary about this is that like Treasure Island is genuinely one of Matt's favorite books, and that Robin Hood, where he pulls this like blind beggar plan from, is one of his favorite films, and he has it totally memorized. And I think that's such funny insight into who Matt is as a person that Treasure Island by Robert Lewis Stevenson is is a beloved book of his. I would never have expected that. I think it's so funny and interesting, and I don't know. I haven't read that book in years and years, but um I think I would be surprised if anyone's favorite book was Treasure Island, and especially Matt, who's like seems so like well read and culturally aware. I don't know. Have either of you read Treasure Island?
KitYeah, but it's been a long time. I mean, I remember it sort of like brought a lot of the things that we think about Pirates Now is sort of mainstream, like the X marks the spot, like all of that. But I mean, it is a really beautiful, like coming-of-age story. And so I think that when I heard Matt say that in the commentary, that that is actually his favorite book, I was like, that I could definitely see.
SteveI read it after watching Muppet Treasure Island. Incredible. As a child. Most things are Mup at first, then other product. And yeah, I remember really enjoying it when I was a kid, but I haven't gone back. Treasure Planet's pretty dope too. That's another good adaptation.
MichelleTreasure Planet is one of, if not my favorite, Disney movie. It's so good. That is the most Michelle statement I've ever heard.
KitYeah, I agree.
MichelleUh, I have I love it. I the there's one or maybe two songs that Johnny Resnick without the rest of the Goo Goo dolls wrote for that movie that are I listen to them often. Love them. Uh I'm Still Here is the main one. And like very sweet little Joseph Gordon Levitt as main character, and Martin Short is a malfunctioning robot. It's it's so good, and it's this like perfect, very strange era of Disney in between the last of the like classic animation and the start of Pixar 3D animation. That like they seem to still be letting people do sort of weird experimental stuff. Atlantis was a I don't know if it's all the same people, but a lot of the same people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
MichelleIt's like experimental and fascinating, and it's so sad that they cut those projects or projects like them. I'm glad those two got made.
SteveWell, Treasure Planet's really fascinating because that's Musker and Clements, who were basically the architects of the Disney Renaissance. Like, they did Little Mermaid, they did Aladdin, like that. So that was their like, hey, here's a we're gonna let you do your own thing because you saved Disney and it never mind. A little too weird for us. We're Disney. And now we have the MCU. Anyway, that's a different podcast. Okay, Reacher. Treasure Planet. Treasure Planet, the entire MCU. That's our podcast.
KitSo I love you. I love you so much.
SteveI would rather do Lost. Is that because you don't want to watch the MCU, or because you don't want to have to listen to me rant about the MCU?
KitUh like a little of column A, a little of column B.
SteveDo you either of you have anything you want to get into before we go into episode five? An episode that fascinated me to know how. Hold on. Wait, we're gave the wrong numbers. This would be episode five and episode six.
SPEAKER_00Oh my bad. Okay, yeah. Episode six.
SteveSo I'm going through our show notes. I love you, kit. You labeled them episode four and episode five. These are episode five and episode six.
KitI apologize. Do you want to redo the.
SteveOh this is a mess, baby, and we're running through it.
MichelleWe could always go back and do a really big, uh, obvious post fix where every time you say four, you can change it to robot voice going. Five. Five. Don't you change the show notes now.
KitYou didn't see that? I think once I've always said episode five.
SteveWhat are you talking about? There hasn't been an episode four here in over 20 years. Episode five. Anyway, on to episode six, The B-Day. Matt and Jay try to get the booking book back on Matt's birthday. The opening credits is the trailer for the Whackness, a movie no one has seen.
MichelleI yeah, I was so fast- I was trying to guess what this intro might be an homage to while it was playing, and didn't have very many guesses. But but do you know anything about the Wackness? I feel like if anyone's seen it, it's you, Steve.
SteveI mean, fair. I I knew it came out, and I know I was offered a press screening at the time, and I said, no, thank you.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SteveCouldn't see everything.
MichelleDo we suspect that the Wackness has a Anything to do with the plot of this episode?
SteveNo. But it's from the director of 50-50 Warm Bodies the night before, Snatched, and The Long Shot.
MichelleHuh. I like It's a really fascinating filmography for one person.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SteveI like one of those movies. Warm Bodies. 5050. Long Shot. Snatched. You know me, Amy Schumer. Our politics are completely aligned. And I love everything she has to say.
MichelleI think 5050 is the only one of those that I have seen. Is that's the Joseph Gordon Levitt cancer one?
SteveYeah. Almost all of these star Seth Rogan.
KitHe's not in Warm Bodies.
SteveNo.
KitThat's the only one of these I have seen.
SteveSo the Whackness, no, I have not seen it. I've seen his other films. Before I go off on my like many, many, many, many, many thoughts, how did Juju feel about this episode?
MichelleI enjoyed it. I have a bone to pick with both of you for letting me believe my alternate universe theory from whatever two, three episodes ago about the flashback with um Matt's sister. Which now I realize why you were so adamant, kit, that it was the actual past because it was, and you knew that, and I wasn't aware.
KitI was just adamant about it because it was riffing off of Lost. Yeah and all of the Lost flashbacks are real from what I saw of season one of Lost.
SteveUm I don't know if that's true of the future, but I still think the Terminator 2 of it all shows it as a potential alternate time because Jay is so different, and he's so much of a like laced up like guy, and he's not really like a man child like he is in this.
MichelleWell, maybe the band made him into the man child that he has become.
KitI also think the man child stuff was still there. It was just like he was still trying to be a little more adult, but now that he's with Matt and doing the band stuff full-time, like he's allowed to be more of a child.
SteveYou know? Fair. Yeah, it just it it could just be straightforward flashback, but just something about it feels slightly misinterpretation.
MichelleWe will never know. We'll never know. But some amount of it is true. We didn't want to ruin that for you. No. No, I'm glad you didn't ruin it, but I I was aghast.
SteveI feel so complicated about this episode. Because the subtext is unbelievable and so good. Them filming random women on the street and being like, oh yeah, felt really icky to me. Yeah, same. And um the Matt's domestic violence joke. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Hmm.
SteveAlso the shaming of someone for being a stripper, but we'll get to that later. Yeah. Just so those parts just made me feel like, yeah. But the rest of it I really liked.
MichelleI think that's fair. There were there were a lot of moments in this particular one that I haven't that I didn't have in the last one, and maybe not the one before that, that I was like, oh yeah, 2008. In a way that I don't think I've like truly felt since the first episode.
SteveMm-hmm. You know, so I watched these with the com I've been watching the commentaries first and then watching the episode. Oh, interesting. And maybe that like tainted it a little bit more because they were talking about all the women they filmed, being like, this might be the hottest woman we've ever seen.
MichelleNormally the like B-roll of like random people that are walking by doesn't really bother me. There's like part in the back of my head that's like, I would not love to see myself filmed in this context, but also it's okay. It's just like there are people and they are walking around. And there isn't like an objectifying that did not feel great in this particular episode.
SteveLike you said, it was really 2008. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SteveSo, um, oh, we forgot to mention at the end of the last episode, episode five, Jay sees the guy who picked up the booking book walking down the street.
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm.
SteveAnd Matt and Jay want to follow this guy to see if they can get the booking book back. But on their way to do this, Matt reveals that it's his birthday. His B Day. His B Day. And I find this we're going to fit a side adventure into the main plot really, really interesting. Because they haven't done something like that yet? Or yeah, because basically the plot, aka the guy who has the booking book, goes into a building and they're like, we're going to do a side adventure while we wait for the plot to restart. Like that's the frame of this episode. It's just a side quest that like the main plot had been locked off because they hadn't had enough XP. You know? Like, I just thought that that was such an interesting way to do it. Because they don't normally hit pause, basically, on a on an arc.
MichelleYeah, or if they do, it's for like five seconds to make a joke and then they're back to the plan.
SteveRight. So they they they are filming on was it a trolley or a bus? I I missed it. I think it's a streetcar. A streetcar, okay. I'm from New York. Uh we don't have those. Um we should though.
SPEAKER_00They're cool.
SteveThey are pretty cool. We still have the tracks from when we were gonna have a trolley system, but story for another time. They were talking about how you should never film on a streetcar if you care about continuity because you can't edit because you're constantly moving. It's just so interesting that Matt cares about that. Because I don't think most people would have noticed on a web series the street names changing out of order.
MichelleNo, I would have just assumed the the bus moved between shots. Yeah. Which is fine. That's what they do.
KitAlso, I'm watching them talk. I'm not looking out the window.
MichelleYou're like, oh, that's John Street and that's Queen Street. I don't know. Those aren't next to each other. This is why we need someone from Toronto.
KitBut I guess I I think maybe it does make sense because this came out around the same time as like I can't believe I'm bringing this up. Cloverfield by J.J. Abrams, one of my favorite movies, actually. Um and I I remember there being a lot of people being upset about them running around New York City because it wasn't accurate, or like they were in the subway station and they would pop up in a different place. So maybe they were sort of reacting to like the internet being very critical and nitpicky back then. I don't know.
MichelleIs this too early for Neil deGrasse Tyson complaining about the placement of the stars in the sky in Titanic?
KitThat happened on the Daily Show, so I feel like this is around the same time, actually.
SteveIt could be. My problem with Cloverfield isn't that they get up at the wrong stops. It's that if I went into the subway and New York City subway rats, the creatures that carry switchblades and handguns, are all running away from something. I'm not gonna go in the opposite direction. If hundreds of New York City rats are scared of something, I am following the rats. And that's what took me out of that movie. They're like, well, obviously we gotta go that way. Nothing bad's coming.
KitAnd that's fair. But at the same time, what I was seeing was like someone making like a very intense map of all of the places they went around the city. And I was like, brother, I'm in suburban North Carolina. I have no context of any of this. To me, this was a masterpiece.
SteveYeah, look, I was really happy that the sound went out in the last 45 seconds, so they gave us all movie passes for another movie. But listen, I'm so happy you love Cloverfield.
unknownThank you.
KitThere are dozens of us.
SteveThere's a fair amount of you that they just took Cloverfield and slapped the name on pre-existing movies.
KitI twice. I I I see it. I understand it. I will always be grateful to see John Goodman, but I would rather to see the monster again, please. Thank you.
MichelleIt's the JJ Abrams curse again.
KitGive me the monster, please.
SteveHave you seen the Cloverfield Paradox? No. Spoiler alert, it ends with the monster eating their spaceship.
KitSpaceship.
SteveYeah, it takes them some space.
KitMaybe I do need to watch this.
SteveNo, you don't. It's awful. It's a movie that already existed and they added one shot and put Cloverfield on it.
KitI open this by saying I love Cloverfield by J.J. Abrams. Do you think this is going to stop me?
SteveEnjoy a movie that has nothing to do with it and nothing to do about a monster like that, and it's just very jarring.
KitI I don't have anything going on tomorrow. Watch Robocop. I can't watch Robocop every single time.
MichelleDid you re-watch Robocop in between last recording and now?
KitNo.
MichelleOh. I'm really sorry. It's a great movie. It's a great movie. Oh, I did I I forget if I said this at the top, but I did mean to say. I understand why you thought Detroit wasn't real. Right? It seems like a very made-up place in that movie specifically.
KitAnd also I was like, seven.
MichelleIt's crazy that you were watching that movie at seven. Ub scene.
KitLook. Uh. Sorry. Steve just started screen sharing all of a sudden.
SteveWhat is this? That would be the Cloverfield monster popping up at the end of the Cloverfield paradox.
KitThat's not what the monster looked like.
MichelleI think you can slap a Cloverfield on the name of this podcast now.
KitCan we be a Cloverfield podcast?
MichelleNirvana, the band that showed the podcast, the Cloverfield Monster.
KitYes. Our guest today. Incredible. Cloverfield Monster. If you are listening. Come on the pod. Wait, can we can we start referring to I because I know the Cloverfield Monster will come up again probably once an episode. Can we start referring to Friend of the Pod. We have to start referring to him as that. Yes.
MichelleYeah, absolutely. I feel like we should maybe make a running list of everyone that we'd like to pursue as guests. And I think we need to put the Cloverfield Monster. Cloverfield Monster is number one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SteveThis is a podcast about getting Matt and Matt and Jay and the Cloverfield Monster.
KitOkay, what if this was all a like a gorilla marketing attempt to get Matt Johnson to direct the next Cloverfield movie?
MichelleI think that would be really fun. I think he would be good at it.
KitI agree.
SteveHe'd be better than Cloverfield Paradox. 10 Cloverfield Lane rips. We can all agree with that.
KitI enjoyed that.
SteveI haven't seen that.
KitJohn Goodman's in it. He's great. I do love John Goodman.
SteveIt rocks. So hard. But I'm excited. I'll add it to my list. Future guest Cloverfield Monster is not in it. But his name is in the title. Oh no, I wasn't joking before. Literally, the two Cloverfield other movies were pre-existing movies, and they were like, let's just call it Cloverfield. People will go see it.
unknownMm-hmm.
SteveThat is pretty fun. And then the third one, they were like, nobody's gonna see this. Let's announce it during the Super Bowl and then put it out when the Super Bowl was over on Netflix.
KitI remember that. I remember seeing that and being like, oh, okay, that's cool. And then I never thought about it again until this exact moment, however many years later.
SteveYou know, you know we're friends and not professionals when we've done maybe 20 minutes about Cloverfield in the middle of this show episode.
KitOkay, but the first Cloverfield is good. Actually, please believe me.
SteveI believe you. I love you deeply. No, I hate it so much. It's because you're from New York. Yes, probably. It's basically like these are all the people that drove rent up. I want them to get eaten by a monster.
KitBut it starts at a going-away party. They are leaving the city. One guy is. The rest of these movies The rest of them will leave. Probably.
SteveVia the monster's tummy.
KitYou're it.
SteveDo you know how much TJ Miller is in that movie? Oh.
KitYeah. But I'm also like a a Moneyball fan, and like that cast is so fucking cursed. Yeah. Yeah. Great movie though. Phenomenal movie. Pretty good movie.
MichelleUm let's let's talk about the B Day. The B-Day.
SteveOkay. One joke I want to call out. They mentioned hitting somebody with a frying pan, but first they call we gotta pull a Princess Peach, which made me cackle.
MichelleHas she does Peach hit people with frying pans? That's not like something that I think of when I think of her. In more than one game, she's done it. Maybe those are just Mario's that I'm not. I think of her as holding an umbrella.
SteveYes, she does do that. But um, she does it in uh Mario RPG for the first time. Oh, let's go to the Mario Wiki fan page just for a minute. Uh Super Mario RPG, Super Smash Bros, Sonic the Hedgehog, Donkey Kong 3, uh and Smash Brothers games.
MichelleShe has a frying pan. Okay.
SteveWe know that they clearly care about Super Mario RPG, so of course they would say that she has a frying pan.
KitThat's true.
SteveYeah.
KitI do love that Matt immediately is like, we have to kill him, and Jay is pushing back on this, and then at the end, he does run up with the frying pan. Like, apparently the the hangout in the park convinced him, like, yeah, actually, I should kill this guy to get the fucking book.
SteveYeah, I they're they're sneaking outside this guy's house. Oh well, first, first, Matt says, like, he's never had a GF and he's always wanted a girlfriend, and asks Jay, like, have you ever had a GF? And Jay's just like staring longingly out the window, thinking about Matt's sister.
SPEAKER_04Mm-mm.
MichelleThat was my first clue that the earlier scene was real.
SteveI like the idea of you seething while watching this episode. You're just furious. And I I love this moment where it's starting to get sincere, and then the guy with the who had the booking book gets off the streetcar and they cut the conversation away from the emotional part and then kind of pivot to let's get Matt Laid.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah.
SteveOkay, so they they bribe this child to watch the door of this guy's apartment to see when he comes out. So you both watched the commentary for this?
SPEAKER_00What a story.
MichelleYeah. That this was like a Polish child who was in Toronto on vacation. That they like sort of they talk to him, they sort of roped him into this, and they start with he told them that he had just come from a parking garage where an old man in a bathroom had like uh bitten him and touching and biting him. That's right. And like it's so alarming, and then and then they say that like he wound up this little Polish kid wound up spending like the whole day with them while they filmed. And they're like, We were really concerned, and we like asked if he was okay, and then he he said he didn't need any help, but then he spent the n the rest of the day just like lying to us about a lot of things, so we feel like he wasn't actually in any danger.
KitYeah, no, and then the the hesitation when they start telling that story of like, oh, what if he buys a DVD? And then they go into the story anyway, and I'm just like, this is so great. They they finally found someone to match their freak in terms of just utter insanity. It was like what, like a 12-year-old child from Poland?
SteveYeah. We love a liar kid. At least I do. Where were his parents? They said they were somewhere on vacation at like a hotel.
MichelleBut like, if he spent like several hours just like running around a park with two random Canadian adults, what were they up to? Maybe he wasn't Polish, maybe he was putting on a fake voice.
KitThat would be incredible. Maybe he wasn't even a child.
MichelleI hope he was really committed to the bit and he was just a child from Toronto pretending to be a child from Poland.
SteveWhere kid from episode six, come on the podcast. But uh this you know, it's mostly a visual episode, I think, in a lot of ways. Of there's like a montage of them running around like trying to get Matt to talk to women. And anytime when he's faced with actually speaking to them or trying to do something, he pulls back and gets super shy, which is not what we really see from.
MichelleYeah, it's very unusual for Matt.
KitYeah, he gets very awkward and almost self-conscious, or he plays it up to the point where it's like he's not really trying, it's like a joke to him. And so, of course, they're not gonna take it seriously, the women on the street.
SteveHe seems so uninterested in doing this. Mm-hmm. And we will get a into that a little later, something that we've been talking about uh in uh in the DMs all week. But after they confront the guy, he says that he returned the book to the Rivoli. And Matt on the commentary was like, I wonder if anybody got as weirded out as we did. Like that, like, but the plot hole that this guy did the thing we wanted to do and we're still mad at him. Because they wanted to return the book to the Rivley, and the guy's like, Yeah, yeah, we did that already.
KitI mean, Matt was correct in that I spent zero thought in that. I was like, yeah, that makes sense. Moving on to the next thing.
SteveWell, you're really distracted by Jay getting ready to murder a man with a frying pan. True. Yeah. Can one of you break down this end sequence? Because it's it's kind of icky.
KitThe when they go back to the apartment. I can I can take a stab at it. Um so Jay comes back to the apartment with the frying pan, of course. Um, and Matt is already there. He's sitting on the couch, he's really upset about how the day is gone. Um the the booking book plan failed. Not a single girl talked to him on his birthday, um, and he's just really having a bad time. Um, Jay decides that he's gonna turn this around by doing a B-day masquerade. He has all these masks, he hands them out. Uh, Matt gets one, the two camera guys get one, Jay gets one. Jay gets the most elaborate mask.
MichelleI have a note about that that he gave Matt the like creepy wooden mask and kept the beautiful feather glitter one for himself.
KitYeah. Um very selfish on Jay's part to have the very beautiful mask for the B-day masquerade. Yeah. Um, so then he goes and sits and starts playing the piano. Um, Matt is not happy about this. He thinks this whole thing is very stupid. The doorbell rings, and Jay goes to go get it. Um, and in comes a stripper. Uh, Jay has hired a stripper for Matt's birthday. Uh, Matt immediately is not thrilled about this. Um, he says he's not interested in that kind of thing. Um, and then the stripper starts dancing to milkshake and eventually takes her mask off, and it's revealed that this is Matt's sister from the previous episode, the one that Jay had been dating. Gas. Jay realizes this, takes his mask off. They have an argument about it. She leaves, but not before revealing that she and Jay used to date for two years. For two years. And then Jay talks to Matt about it, thinking Matt is gonna be really upset. Matt says he doesn't care. He doesn't care at all about who Jay dates. It would take more than that to break up Nirvana the band. And Jay is sort of like shocked by this because he thought this was going to destroy their friendship, destroy the band, and he had been holding this a secret for so long.
SteveAnd then Matt starts to get into his feelings for Jay, and Jay's like gay. And this is where things start cooking in my brain. Because we get to the the post-credit scene and they're playing wee golf, and Matt's gonna get like a minus 11 score, and Jay makes a joke about cursing the hole, and Matt gets so fucking pissed and breaks up the band and leaves. And in the commentary, they were like, Well, in the original version, Matt got upset about his sister, and we realized to get rid of that. And they said, Oh, I, you know, got a minus 11, and I thought it'd be really funny, because like this is how I would react to something like that happen. And I'm gonna call bullshit on that on the commentary.
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm.
SteveBecause in the context of the larger episode, Matt tried to be sincere. Jay brushed it off and made fun of him for it. Matt is clearly upset about Jay brushing off his feelings. He's not fucking pissed off about Wii Golf. Those are too close together plot-wise for it to just be the game.
KitYeah, because what Matt says to Jay is that it doesn't matter that he doesn't have a G friend because he has a B friend and he pokes at Jay right where his heart would be, which I thought was an interesting acting choice. Um, and then Jay, of course, brushes it off and says, Boyfriend, that's pretty gay. And then Matt quickly corrects and says, No, best friend.
SteveI refuse to believe it was just the wee golf. Like it's it's a it's a funny joke. It is I don't know. Maybe I'm maybe I'm overthinking, but it's just too It's too close together for it to not be. It has to be Matt being hurt about actively being sincere without undercutting himself for the first time, which he does in every other episode, being made fun of for it, and then you know, having another reason to be upset. What do you two think? Do you think that's like wild speculation?
KitI mean, I could I could kind of see it. I think for me, them going from that moment of, oh, that's gay, to the wee golf incident. Like, like I could definitely see that, but I also think that it also has to do with the fact that Jay is just fucking with him and he hates that so much. So I could also see that being a component of it.
MichelleI do think it's interesting in the context of like, especially knowing that they originally had like a big reaction to the reveal of Jay dating Matt's sister, that they went back and changed to him not caring about that at all. And then the thing that he does seem to care about is Jay fucking with him over Wii golf and cursing a hole is like that whole scene. I was like, oh, I've been in this room when like I was 10 years old, and like someone got really overly pissed about something that happened in a game and like stormed out. And it's like A, on the surface, just very funny to see two adult men having that interaction. But B, like it is this like the thing that gets to him, and the thing that hurts him is Jay fucking with him. And like it could be because of this like culmination of things that happen throughout the day, it could just be like in that moment, it could be a little bit of both. Um, but like nothing else faces him except his best friend messing with him. I think is so interesting.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SteveBefore we get into our last big point, I wanted to call out some interesting things from the commentary. One is that every single music thing that Jay does in the piano is improvised on the spot. He doesn't plan any of it. Thought that was really interesting. Uh apparently they had to reshoot that last sequence because they used Matt's real sister's name. She got really upset and they had to change it.
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm.
SteveAnd the one part that I laughed at, which is like Jared knocking over a bunch of shit while filming this dramatic like fight, uh, just as what happened and they kept it, which is incredible. Also that they uh regret the amount of homophobic jokes in this. Yeah. Which I'm just gonna come out and say it. Matt's in love with Jay, right?
KitI'm so glad we got here. Yes.
SteveGod, because it that, you know, just to peek behind the curtain, I think we were all dancing around it after this episode, and then we just came out and said, yeah, uh, so we all kind of agree that the subtext here is that Matt is in love with Jay.
KitI just want to say I am so thrilled we had this like meta conversation outside of the podcast about whether or not we wanted to talk about this. Because Steve, you had texted us, I think, at like eight in the morning to be like, I have a theory. Because I don't know if you guys know this, but there's been a plan inside of the plan of this podcast, which is I have been laying the groundwork to have this conversation with you guys since episode one.
MichelleThe plan.
KitThis has been my plan.
MichelleYou had a secret whiteboard?
KitI had a secret whiteboard this entire time to bring up my theory that Matt is in love with Jay and doesn't realize it. Is my take on the web series.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
KitAnd I have been laying the groundwork from the beginning, and that there was at some point you were both going to come into this call to do an episode, and I was going to activate the remote control I have on your windows and doors and lock you in to force this conversation entering my saw trap.
MichelleMr. Podcast Man, I gave you all the clues. So true. Welcome to the saw trap. Kit and her best friend Matt Lauer.
SteveOh no. But look, I you know, it really two things unlocked that for me this week. One was like the end of this episode with Matt getting really upset, but also how he talked such a big game about wanting a GF, and then anytime he was actually confronted with women, being so uninterested and so awkward. Yeah. And we've asked you guys to watch the movie, so I'm gonna do a slight thing. There is a deleted scene where Matt and Jay have like gone their separate ways, and Matt is-I don't know if you've seen this, Michelle, Matt is trying to talk to somebody else about like bringing them back together, and he's like, Well, yeah, I know he's happy, but he's happier with me. Yeah. Like, no, no, like you need to understand, like, he is happier with me. Yeah. And I was like, Oh, yeah.
MichelleMatt is in love with Jay and doesn't really And Jay loves Matt, but is not in love with him for now.
SteveUh noted uh AO3 fan, Michelle. Have you checked?
MichelleI actually haven't yet. I should see what the archive of our own has to say about Nirvana the band. You are our resident erotic fanfiction expert. Uh it's a title that I'm proud to have.
SteveI mean, I would hope so. How many times have we watched a movie and you've just dropped links in the chat?
MichelleUh almost every time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
MichelleIt's just fun to see what the people are talking about. And sometimes the people are talking about very surprising pairings. Hold on one second.
SPEAKER_00Are you looking it up?
MichelleI'm looking something up.
SPEAKER_05Oh no.
SteveOkay. Um, there are 3,184 uh Cloverfield monster-based fan fictions.
MichelleHonestly, that feels low.
KitWhat am I doing on AO3? I'm in the wrong fucking tag. What the fuck?
MichelleI don't know how many of them are erotic. You can sort by which ones are explicit. Um, in comparison, there are only 188 works in Nirvana the Band The Show, Canada TV 2017. And 95 of those are marked as explicit.
KitHell yeah. Uh fanfic authors, you are our strongest soldiers.
SteveUm, yeah, no, it's just it's such a big unlock that I, you know, I've watched this several times. And like you were saying before, Kit, like sometimes you just let it wash over you and you're having a good time, and like with the audaciousness of it all. But when I'm watching it with this critical eye for this show, I was like, oh.
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm.
SteveYeah, it's it's through the whole thing. I can't wait till we get to um an ongoing shitty thing Matt does on the Vice Land series that I think does play into this quite well.
KitMm-hmm. Mm-hmm. In the web series, at least the episodes that we've watched together so far, I I do think that there is a case to be made for Matt being in love with Jay. Like, do I think necessarily that Matt Johnson, the real life person, is playing it that way on purpose? No, I really don't. I think this is one of those things where it's like homophobic and it's sort of like circled around to being like gay subtext. It's like a supernatural kind of thing where it's like so homophobic that it like kind of circles around. You're like, okay, I could kind of see it. But there are so many instances so far in this show that to me, Reed is Matt having feelings for Jay. Like he it's like a classic yearning sort of situation. And I talked about this briefly in a previous episode about this relationship that they have feels so much like being in love with your high school best friend, and you're figuring out your sexuality, and you don't understand why everything feels so life or death with them, but you care so deeply, and there's that like yearning aspect to it. Like the way Matt reacts to Jay in this reads as so many of those friendships that I myself have had in middle and high school when I was figuring out my sexuality. You know? And do I think that's intentional on their part? Probably not. But it's what I'm seeing.
SteveWell, I put it in there with I don't know if you two have ever seen George Romero talk about Night of the Living Dead. It's gonna sound weird, but I mean, have you two seen it?
KitI've seen it, but I've not heard him talk about it.
SteveYeah. That movie is like this incredible like commentary on like racism in America. Yeah. And George Romero, when confronted with this, was like, I just cast the best actor for the role. I never thought like that the racial dynamics would come through. And it's a thing that comes through in the performances, it's a thing that comes through when you watch this film at clear as day, but it wasn't part of the planning. And that was the closest I could think of to how the Matt is secretly in love with Jay of this all. And we're not doing this in like in a uh the won't fuck, whatever. No, just like just a deep unable for Matt to comprehend love. Could be romantic, could be otherwise, could be a little bit of both. And it's just this like, yeah, I agree with you. I don't think it's intentional, but it's fucking there.
MichelleI feel like we talked about this somewhat recently that there's this like whole genre of movies that are marketed and like sometimes even like by the creators intended as these like just guys being dudes movies that are actually like beautiful love stories between two men. Yeah. Uh like Top Gun is on there. I'm blanking on I was probably talking about Pacific. Well, yes, yes, yeah.
KitLike all of the Judd Apatown movies, basically, that have that romance vibe to it.
MichelleYeah, and like something like I love you, man, where like even that is like explicitly like, haha, these two men are friends, and like do they love each other? Isn't that a little weird? And also like, but neither of them are gay, but maybe it's like flirting with this idea that like it's okay for two men to love each other in such a fascinating way.
KitYeah, a friend of mine calls this the refers to it as the the two bros chilling in a hot tub, but not too close, because that'd be gay vindication of it. Like where it's like it's two men and they're close, but they're unable to express that male friendship in a way that women can, I guess.
MichelleYeah.
KitAnd so they have to have that level of distance without it coming across as something more, but at the same time, that gets muddled when you have the sort of like romantic type comedies where it's, well, we're gonna show them being very close, but like make it a joke, because like why would two men express feelings and emotions this way that would be gay?
MichelleYeah. And I think it is, it like does come back to the 2008 of it all that this is something that was very much being grappled with and figured out sort of within culture of like, okay, like it is okay to be gay, but also that's scary, and uh let's make jokes about it instead of leading into it. Uh and it's like such a funny time capsule of that moment.
KitNo, absolutely.
SteveAnd I I I'm interested to see as we go, now that we've opened this door of the Matt is in love with Jay, of it all, to kind of see ways that it pops out. Because, like you said, it doesn't necessarily seem like it has to be romantic, but it's something. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SteveKit, could you go into like the the two bits of uh interview that you found earlier in Sentus? Because I I thought it was really interesting.
KitThe one thing I will say is that I know we're talking about it as like it could be romantic, it could be otherwise. I'm very much reading this is romantic. And so that is gonna shape how I talk about these two bits of interview. Fair. Um but um Matt and Jay did a an interview on World Cafe for their personal records uh section, um, where they came on to promote the movie coming out, and they were listing um different songs that mean something to them, mean something to the band, or mean something to like Nirvana the band, all of that, right? And so they they've split up the playlist into six songs, three chosen by Jay, three chosen by Matt. And the first two songs that Matt picks, I think, are really fascinating into understanding the sort of psyche of these characters. Um, and more specifically, the first song he picks uh for this this interview segment, which is uh There is a Light That Never Goes Out by the Smiths. So he's he's chosen the song. It's the first song for his section of the playlist. And when he's talking about the lyrics of the song specifically, and he says this feeling of an adolescent longing for something that you just cannot explain to anybody, and it's embarrassing and it's private. It's like a mysterious poetry in how Morrissey writes about all of these things that in all of my films, I feel like my characters are dealing with like a kind of longing for something they can't quite admit, for a sublimated sexuality. All of my movies, there's no real sex, yet you feel as though the protagonist has some kind of sexual designs on his best friend that you can't quite place. So this interview is really great, but this specific clip I had seen floating around online in the fandom. And to me, it was a very load-bearing clip for me in terms of my interpretation of Matt Johnson's character in Nirvana the band, because I absolutely see this 100%.
SteveAnd he he cites a specific lyric, you know, and it's the and in the dark darkened underpass, I thought, oh god, my chance has come at last, but a strain fear fear gripped me and I just couldn't ask. Which Lore Drop, I almost got tattooed when I was in college.
SPEAKER_04Hmm.
KitLore drop. This was on every single mix CD I ever gave a girl in high school this exact song. It's the quintessential yearning song.
SteveYeah. The other song we'll be talking about in a minute are two of the three songs that every band I've ever fronted had to cover in order to have me in it.
SPEAKER_04Uh-huh.
SteveAnd I was like, oh fuck, we're we're cooking. Um, because yeah, there's a light, you know, that never goes out is so achingly sincere. I think there is stuff that comes up in the movie that plays into the chorus of this song.
SPEAKER_04Hmm.
SteveCover your ears and skip ahead 30 seconds, right? You know They've asked them all to see the movie. I know, but I'm trying to be kind. But Matt willingly letting himself die for Jay to be happy and not thinking about it at all is very much the as long as I'm with you and you're okay, don't give a shit what happens to me. And I think that is so much the, you know, Doll Dugger Bus crashes into us to die by your side, you know, it's such a heavenly way to die. And when you when you shared this, I was like, fuck yes. Because that is that kind of is the core of Matt.
MichelleYeah.
SteveKind of glib, really, really emotional, and willing to throw it all on the table for someone he loves.
KitLike he's so willing to throw everything out there, but he's not willing to share his feelings about it, like his true feelings. That juxtaposition of watching him love Jay so deeply as a friend, and possibly something more. Like, you can you can see it in the show. The instances where he and Jay get into a scuffle. It happens twice in the first two episodes where they get into a scuffle, they get into an argument. Jay is sadly playing the piano, and then Matt is just hiding in the hallway, in the stairwell, and it looks like he wants very badly to say something, but he just doesn't. He just sits there and just listens, and it's the most yearning shit I've ever seen in my entire life.
SteveI think the show is such a good example of like what that feels like to see someone suffering in a way by not letting things be said. And just like the core of the show is if they just called the Rivoli and asked for a spot, they would get it. If they just said the words, everything would be fine. But they will do anything but be fucking direct.
KitAnd I think that goes into the next song that Matt picks in this interview. So we we've just done The Smiths, we've just done There Is a Light That Never Goes Out. The very next song he picks, he calls Nirvana the band's Rallying Cry. And it is Boys Don't Cry by the Cure. It's so fascinating. Fascinating. And what he says is without being specific, this is the rallying call of these characters, where it's like, yeah, we have deep feelings, but we don't show it, right? We really do love each other, but we'll never admit it. We're so wrapped up in this, but we're going to act like it's no big deal. Like the kind of male emotion that this song tries to talk about, like literally boys don't cry, is somehow at the heart of these guys.
SteveI'm so glad you found this interview. Me too. Three episodes in, and I think we've cracked the code.
KitI'm just glad I didn't have to trap you in a zoom to listen to my TED talk about how I think Matt is in love with Jay.
SteveReally does unlock it all. And both two songs that are really, really like formative to me as a human and figuring my shit out. Um, sad little goth that I was, uh, and probably still am. But just yeah, I as we go through the rest of these episodes, it's gonna be really interesting to have this mapped over it. And for people listening, don't think we're gonna have like the here's where Matt's in love with Jay Corner. Like if it's not relevant to something that happens, we're not gonna like deep dive fan theory bullshit. But I think we do care enough about these characters. Over time, at least. But I think sometimes.
KitThere will be little segues.
SteveBut I don't think we're gonna be like trying to shoehorn it in. And I think that's sometimes with like breakdown podcasts, people kind of come with an agenda that it's just like, well, here it is now. I just I feel like we just care enough about these characters and their journey that we will like call it out when we see it, not necessarily like look for it. Do you know what I mean?
MichelleYeah, this is not Taylor Swift Easter egging of like making things up and doing crazy numerology math to tell a story. Yeah.
SteveSo don't worry, you know, if you if you think that's where this going, we promise you that is not. Can't promise there won't be more Cloverfield talk.
MichelleI can promise that there will be more Cloverfield talk. Friend of the Pod, the Cloverfield Monster.
SteveI was so happy. You have no idea when you dropped those two songs in the notes. Just because they are, like I said, like any band I was in, I was like, look, if we're gonna do this, we that was my Matt Johnson moment. I was like, if we're gonna play a live show, we need to cover either Boystone Cry or There is a Light or uh Bobby Darren's Artificial Flowers, the song that radicalized me to hate capitalism.
KitYeah, no, these are great picks by Matt, honestly. Like the entire video is fascinating. I highly recommend watching it. The very last uh song that Matt picks is uh a Jack Kerouac spoken word piece. Oh, that he says uh he loves so much because it sounds like what he Matt and Jay and Nirvana the band think they sound like. And so when they played that, I was like, oh, fascinating. This is what the characters aim to sound like or think that they sound like. That's so good. Anyway, the entire video is fantastic, even if you do not believe in this this theory that we've cooked up. Um but yeah, no, I I can't promise that I won't bring it up periodically. There are a few key there are a few key moments coming up where I'm gonna have to be like, listen, guys, I'm locking you in my dungeon and we're talking about this. I'm so excited. When I came to the conclusion about it, it unlocked a lot of the show for me and in an interesting way. Like again, I don't think this is text. I don't even think this is subtext. I think this is accidental. Yeah. Uh yeah, but it's still fascinating, either which way.
SteveBut I really think that those are the best and deepest versions, the accidental of it all. From what you're saying, you know, with this clip of Matt, I don't think he's not thinking about it.
KitYeah. I mean, to be to be clear, I I think that the stuff in the web series is accidental. The movie, I don't think is.
MichelleNo.
KitThere's stuff in the movie that I firmly believe is text. Um, and there's stuff in the vice show, but we can get into that when we get to it. Yeah. But the the there are instances in the the web series, this episode in particular, and then the the lost episode where they're under the stairs waiting for Vince Valence, and he's saying, like, this isn't about the band, this is how we spend time with each other. Sorry, that's that's another load bearing log in my little little house.
SteveI'm really interested in seeing where this pops up organically. Because it'll be there. But, you know, before we move on to, you know, our next episodes and our journey of thinking about them way too deeply. Does anyone have any final thoughts about either episode five or episode six?
MichelleUm, I don't spoil this for me. I don't want to know yet, but I am very curious to see. I think I feel like this is gonna be the last time we see the sister, but I'm curious if that's true. We'll find out together.
SteveI don't bullshit me. You know, you could just go to imdb.com. There's a little bar that says search and put in show and see how many episodes she's on. You know, kid and I come off like the maniacs, like at face value.
SPEAKER_00That's fair.
SteveBut Michelle Loki. The background psychopath. Yeah.
MichelleSecret freak.
SteveI we we all need every group needs one. One thing that I thought was really cute was Matt said that the uh hospital was his mom's office because she's a doctor and let them film after hours. I thought that was really cute. That all of their families are so involved in the making of this web series. It's really sweet and supportive, and it made me really happy. Yeah. And the other one was that uh Jay said that the waiter from the Rivoli once walked up to him and said, I know what you did.
KitIt's so scary. So ominous.
SteveIf that is truly the wording that guy used, that's so funny of him. What a star. That that guy was such a good waiter, because he was unflappable by this psychotic guy clearly pretending to be blood. Yeah. Yeah, so that's episode five and six. We're coming up on next week, it'll be six and seven. Nope.
MichelleSeven and eight. Seven and eight.
SteveNext week will be seven and eight.
MichelleSeven.
SteveAnd eight. I promise we'll get it right when we write it out on the internet. I'm so excited for the very weird kind of out of continuity episode 11 when we're gonna be talking about that. The way to miss the social club episode. Just I was thinking about that earlier today. Ooh. But until then, as always, nothing like a good feeling.
MichelleNothing like a good feeling.
KitNothing like a good feeling.
SteveThank you for listening to Nirvana the band The Show the Podcast. We'd love to hear from you.
SPEAKER_05You can email us or send a voice memo to NirvanaThePod at gmail.com.
SteveAnd we're also on Blue Sky and Instagram at NirvanaThePod. Our website is NirvanaThePod.com.
SPEAKER_05Our show is edited by Kit with additional help by John.
SteveSpecial thanks to Anne Meadows for our logo. Oh, and Matt and Jay, if you're listening, we'd love to have you on the show.