Steve 0:11

Welcome to Nirvana the Ban The Show the Podcast. It's the podcast where we talk about Nirvana the Man, the show, in an attempt to get Matt Johnson and Jay McCarroll to come on. I'm Steve, and these are my co-hosts. I'm Michelle, and I'm Kit. Guys, put your sunglasses on. We're going to Hollywood, baby. Wow. I can't believe it. We hit the big time.

Kit 0:28

It's in Utah.

Steve 0:29

Hollywood and Utah. Hollywood, Utah, USA. Built by Mormons. How are we doing this week? We're doing great. We don't have any homework to follow. No, no homework. Yeah, we don't.

Kit 0:39

It's it's bizarre to not have homework.

Steve 0:41

I know. We could jump straight into the whiteboard then.

Kit 0:44

Yeah. Yeah, that sounds great.

Steve 0:46

Okay. Here's our whiteboard. Have we heard back from Matt and Jay?

Kit 0:50

Uh no, we have not. Although I have been sending out communication in Morse code. I have been getting beeps back, but I don't know how to translate. So I will get back to you on that.

Steve 1:02

I think that might be Godzilla. If only. Cease and desist or Jared or Luca?

Michelle 1:07

Not yet, sadly, on any of those three counts. Jay's dad. His very attractive dad.

Steve 1:13

Even more sadly, no. Okay. Uh the Canadian arm of the International Space Station.

Kit 1:19

You know, that could be the Morse code now that I think about it. Oh shit.

Steve 1:22

We finally got him.

Kit 1:23

Yeah, I think we got the arm.

Steve 1:25

Cool. Um, last on here, we have a noted journalist, film critic who's also a big fan of Jarvana the Band, the show.

Kit 1:32

That feels possible. Yeah. I feel like I saw something in my email about that.

Steve 1:37

Holy fuck, it's Barry Hertz, film critic, deputy arts editor, and film editor of the Globe and Mail. Also author of Welcome to the Family, the Explosive Story about the Fast and the Furious, uh, the blockbusters that supercharged the world. Thanks for coming on the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Hey, thanks for having me. I was lurking here the whole time.

Steve 1:55

What? Wow. You were pretending to be the Canadian arm of the International Space Station?

SPEAKER_00 1:59

As yeah, as is my want. Um, not what it do the first time.

Steve 2:04

First wanted to just come out and say, and I know I said this in my email, um, your book is great. As a Fast and the Furious fan, former Vin Diesel podcast host, um burned through it in 48 hours, and I really recommend anybody read it.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Oh, thank you. Is that uh as a member of the family, that means everything.

Steve 2:24

So hopefully Matt and Jay come on the show, unlike Vin Diesel, who we found out heard my Vin Diesel podcast and did not enjoy.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Oh, you actually heard that he that he heard it?

Steve 2:35

Uh-huh. From his management. He was not a fan.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Oh wow. Well, I mean, you have a one-up on me because uh I certainly sent many missives uh to his management and his reps and never heard you never even got the courtesy of a reply. Um, so uh to at least hear that uh he's aware or was aware of you, I think that that's not nothing. I don't know. That's I'm very happy to hear.

Steve 3:03

Yeah. Um, not to like puff you up too much on this, but um I know one of the reasons I I loved your book so much is you get into like common some of the thornier parts of the franchise, not just like it goes car, go boom. But like some of the more emotional stuff, some of the one of my favorite things about that, about Vin Diesel, and one of the reasons I did the podcast is is many, many, many, many, many, I'll politely say exaggerations about things. And I and I think you do a really wonderful job of like paying homage to what makes those movies great while also being really honest about them. So I just wanted to call that out.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Oh, thanks. Yeah, I mean I you know, I felt like uh like I I love the series sincerely and ironically, but I feel like you can't have an honest conversation about it without acknowledging all the many um thornier, uglier elements of how that came to be. And I think that's just representative of Hollywood in general. Like the there's the good and the bad. Like it's not it's far from a clean industry.

Steve 4:06

So you're a noted fan of Nirvana the Band, the show. Um there has been more than one Reddit post where people are like, Barry's great when someone's like, Who is this guy? Uh so I wanted to ask, like, what is it that makes this property so special to you?

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Um yeah, you know, and I am aware of the Reddit posts. I dip in and out of there.

Steve 4:27

So I saw the Reddit post that said you were aware of the Reddit post.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Yeah, so there you go. So I'm not I'm not blind to these things, but uh I'm also not like you know spending hours hunting them out. They just, you know, they come my way. Um but why I've you know it's it's been a it's been a property. Can we call it a property? Can we use that dirty word? It's been a it's been a a storytelling arc that I've been following for a long time, uh, you know, decades now, I guess. Almost almost two decades. Um, and I just, you know, it speaks to the way I grew up, the language, uh, the references. You know, it is very dependent on a on a certain generation's understanding of culture. And I feel I was in that real sweet spot there. Um so it immediately spoke to me, and I I felt it was kind of like decoding a lot of things that you know I was thinking and feeling. And I just love the irrepressibility of it and the way that against all seeming odds, uh the guys have managed to turn this incredibly niche cultural, you know, cult uh sensation into I think a legitimate global phenomenon. Um and I've loved watching them just push that um and work so hard against all opposing forces to to make it their own and to do it without compromise. So I feel it's like it's a it's an incredible success story of uh artistic passion and voice and singularity and uh how that can really be done in Canada. Um I I feel it's a great Canadian success story, in addition to be just being just a great success story. Um and I I I love spotlighting that. And I I you know I think that uh it can be a real inspiration to other creators out there, other audiences. And that's kind of yeah, that's why I feel so uh so passionately about it. And it's just you know, it's funny. I mean, you know, again, like it's brought it's brought so much joy.

Michelle 6:44

You said you've been following it since for for decades. So have you been around since like the web series was originally airing?

SPEAKER_00 6:51

Yeah, I mean, I was turned on to it when I was at the not when I was at the National Post um at the start of my journalism career. And um it was actually my still good friend uh Mark Medley, who is now the deputy opinion editor at the Globe. So I worked alongside him there. He was a books reporter, cultural reporter at the post. I was um uh the arts editor for the daily section at the post, uh, under a couple other arts editors. So I was kind of junior. And he turned he turned me on to it. And I think he did it, I think he did the post first interview with with Matt back when it was the web series. And I just like mainlined it um and caught up with it. And then I've been following it ever since.

Michelle 7:39

Oh, that's so cool. Because we've all t we've all come to it at different periods. Like I am relatively new, I didn't really know that much about it until the movie came out, and sort of Kit and Steve were earlier, and some of the other people that we've talked to were earlier. So it's I don't I don't think we've talked to anybody who's been like truly in it since the very beginning. So you're the first, and that's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

I mean, it was really I mean, you know, I I came to it as a fan. Um, like I I just loved watching it, and then eventually, you know, the guy's ambitions got larger, and that intersected nicely with my, you know, ARC as a you know, Toronto arts writer, journalist. Um, and I think the first, you know, interview I had with them was probably um Yes circa Operation Avalanche, um, when that was was coming into a thing. And, you know, very quickly, you know, kind of like would report and catch up with them whenever a new project was, you know, on the move. Um and yeah, it's just it's been really startling again, like just watching their evolution.

Steve 8:45

So, like, you know, you wrote a really good piece uh when the Viceland show dropped, like kind of outlining it. And I actually think we'll link it in the show notes, but I think it's one of the better ways to describe what the show is. And I could really tell your passion because after um Rogers Media pulled out of Viceland, you did the follow-up one about how they were gonna still keep going and got like an unbelievably like Matt Johnson-y quote out of Matt Johnson there that I have here, which was uh though we have a three-season deal with Vice uh Studios Canada, not Viceland. We're in the middle of production on the third season, and to be honest, not this is not something we're worried about, which is that perfect Matt Johnson bravado.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Yeah, I mean, like the the great thing about you know, and I realized this immediately about you know, talking with them, especially Matt, is he's like he is a journalist's dream uh quote machine, because um he just does not uh care about the typical formalities or you know, not you know, not saying stuff he's supposed to not say or whatever, keeping things a little under wraps, like he's just like a quote machine. So, you know, any interview is going to contain some real gold. Um and yeah, uh so it you know, the the unfilteredness of it was again like so startling, um, and still remains to be, because you know, you be you you work as an entertainment journalist long enough, you learn kind of the cadences and the restriction, the invisible restrictions of a conversation. There's always a PR minder on the other end, or there's somebody looking over the shoulder, or there's like a call the next day saying, like, um, yeah, he didn't really mean to say that. And with uh the Supruder guys, like there's it's that's never been the case.

Steve 10:34

That's so cool. Yeah, it was uh only really when we started this show when I realized because you know this a lot of the stuff hasn't made its way to America without a bunch of research, is like what a firebrand he was in the Canadian like film industry.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Well, I mean, yeah. I mean, you know, there, you know, not to toot my own horn or puff anything up, but there, you know, 10 years ago, um, I did a big cover story um timed for the 20, oh geez, what year are we 2018 edition of 2016, sorry. Um and it included Matt and included uh Kaz Radvinsky and Andrew Savadino and um Chelsea Noah Molly and a couple other like up-and-coming Canadian talents. Uh and you know, some of the quotes that were in that piece from Matt were like, you know, again, like the old system needs to die, and you know, this, the like just like really unfiltered stuff. And you know, I was later told by uh by uh you know Neam Fishman, who's the producer of Blackberry, like that was the coverage that kind of got his attention to what uh Matt and his producer Matt Miller were doing, and you know, he was like because he was slagging a lot of Neam's titles, like you know, his work with Paul Gross on like hyena road or Passionale and stuff like that. So he invited it, he's like, you know, okay, you like you have genuine criticism. Like, come into the tent, tell me what we're doing wrong. Like he's he was he was open to the criticism and he wanted to see what these you know new uh firebrand people had to say. And you know, that led to Blackberry. Um so it's uh it's been fascinating to watch, you know, him kind of throwing stones and the people in the house not necessarily like calling the cops, but rather saying, okay, well come on in and tell us why you're throwing these stones, and maybe we can we can work together. And it's been pretty remarkable to see how the evolution of how that's changed, like not only in like you know, getting um you know, bigger producers involved and like working the system, but you know, the way the work that uh Matt Johnson and Matt Miller did with telefilm with the Talent to Watch program and getting all those micro-budget like programs reshaped and refashioned for a time. And um I mean it really is the case of like the the guy yelling on the corner actually has something interesting to say.

Steve 13:02

I'd love to hear your read. Because like I jumped in on this, like I saw Blackberry, I was like, who the fuck is this guy? What the fuck is this movie? And then like found Nirvana the band through that. Because I was like, what's this? And then spiral down the and and what I have found just in in my research and what I you know seen and listened to and all of that. I think his secret power is his sincerity. Like he's got that like biting edge, but none of it seems like sarcastic, it all seems like really sincere. And and I for me, that's what I find makes his work and you know, Nirvana the band too, like and and all the times I hear him talk, like that seems like the the secret weapon. I I don't know about you who's been in this longer, of course.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

I mean, it's you know, sincerity and outspokenness are you know two very unique properties. I'm not sure they always coalesce with each other. Um and sometimes, you know, it's I feel like it's hard to kind of pin down uh when it's you know him, when it's Matt the the filmmaker talking, and it's when it's Matt the character talking, or when he wants to make just like a you know, like cause a scene and cause a disruption. But I think it's all underpinned by because he's not just like pissing on everybody, like he wants to do good work, um, and he wants the system to do good work, and he he wants, you know, I don't know if uh, you know, being an inspiration or or any kind of like leadership role was ever really in the cards, but you know, unintentionally or not, that's what he has taken on the position of. Um, because again, in like the industry, they see that oh, you actually you can have, you know, you can use your voice in a totally unfiltered way, and you don't have to censor yourself, and you don't have to be that, you know, quote unquote Canadian cliche of the polite deferential filmmaker. Uh, you can be loud and you can be abrasive and you can be controversial and you can get in trouble. Um, and you can still, you know, as if you have the talent and the drive and the commitment to back it up, yeah, then what's stopping you?

Steve 15:14

Yeah, and he seems like such an interesting gateway to American audiences as well. Because I, at least from what I've seen in like my little New York film circles, um, like when uh Mile and Kicks came out, people were like, oh, Matt Johnson produced this, and versus being like, This is Chandler of the Back, because I think I like movies as rad as hell. But um, I just thought that was so interesting that produced by Matt Johnson is now a thing that carries weight with American audiences.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

I mean, totally. I mean, that's you know, and that speaks to the level um that he's reached and the level that his team has reached, and that they can now uh imprint um that not necessarily sensibility, but like taste. Um and it's you know, that's what you want. Like, you know, what that's what any dream, you know, up-and-coming filmmaker wants is like somebody more established to, you know, add their name to it to lend that credibility. And it's wonderful to see that that is starting to happen. And um, you know, I mean, you see it, yeah, you certainly see it with Chandler's film, you see it with the way that he helps promote like the works of uh, you know, Grace Kulicki and Ben Petrie, um, and uh, you know, Sophie Romvari. I mean, he wasn't he didn't have a hand in those making those films, but he certainly lends his spotlight toward promoting them and getting those voices out there. So it's really hardening to see.

Steve 16:35

Yeah, it's awesome. It it's the most I've heard people talk about like Canadian film in forever, and it's really exciting.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Well, I think, you know, like there's always that, you know, the uh the cliche is the arts journalists always looks for a trend that has three elements to it, because three makes a trend. Um, and that's just the easy way of doing it. But I feel, you know, trend spotting or not, there is a genuine moment that is happening in Canadian cinema, um, that it's kind of like the web, you know, the the corkboard of all the conspiracy theories. Like it leads toward um what Matt and the team are doing, and you can see that in Chandler's work, and you can see that in Sophie's work, uh, and you can see that um stretched out in so many different directions. So if we can kind of keep this momentum going, um, then I feel like we're positioning ourselves really well.

Steve 17:27

Yeah, that would be incredible to have to keep going. It's been super exciting to see everything coming out, you know, at least on our end. But um speaking of film stuff, most horrible uh segue ever. Uh what made you want to do the big time? Like what made of all the episodes, what made you choose that one?

SPEAKER_00 17:44

I mean, I think this is the one I've seen the most, um, because I feel it's also the one that's the most fun to deconstruct. Um, and I feel it is it also speaks to the movie the most. Um the way that it plays with geography, um, first like uh Toronto geography, especially, you know, for those for those in for those who know what they're watching, it's like a masterwork of sleight of hand. Oh interesting. And for those who don't know what they're watching, it's just, you know, it's just funny and adventurous as hell. Um but just the level of um world building that's involved in it, the level of myth making that's involved in it, the metacontextualness of it all, uh between uh, you know, the real Operation Avalanche and the Operation Avalanche of this episode, which is of course like just a riff on the dirties and the way that it they hijacked Operation Avalanche's actual Sundance premiere to do this. Um but the you know, again, I feel like most it kind of spoke to like what I felt when I was watching the movie in a very similar way of how they play and remix reality, Toronto reality. Um, you know, that movie moment, of course, when they're at one point, you know, across they're at the City TV building, and then suddenly across the street there's movie theater, which is, you know, as Torontonians know, is the paradise, which is located nowhere near there. Just as in this episode, um we're meant to think that they're, you know, storming um I is it the Eccles theater in Sundance. And in actuality, they're storming the Royal uh on college. Um and but any, you know, that's something that you would only really know if you know those spaces intimately. Um, and they either think you do and you'll love it, or they think you won't and they'll trick you. Um, and that's also like the best like this is also emblematic of like why the series works so well because of the trickery. It's always sneaking, right? The power of sneaking, the power of trick.

SPEAKER_06 19:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Um and how it can work for you. So I I just uh, you know, in the way it brings in Kevin Smith, you know, I can go on and on and on about this, but it's like I feel like everything that came before it, this episode, was leading to this episode. And at the same time, the episode foretells or is prescient about everything that would come after.

Michelle 20:14

Yeah. We have talked a lot about sort of like this feeling of like sometimes you just want to like live in the reality of the show and just like accept everything they're showing you at face value. And sometimes I'm like just like, I have to know how you did that. And I think this particular episode is the one where I felt the strongest pull of like I want to like split myself in two and live in both worlds, one where I figure out like exactly where they did all these things and like what is real and what is like visual effects and what is dumped over, and uh like me my other half is just living in the world where like they did sneak this goofy five-minute video into real Sundance, and uh it's it's impossible to choose.

Steve 21:01

So, should we jump into the big time? Let's do it. So, Vice Land, season one, episode five, The Big Time. After Matt is thrown out of school for trying to film his movie, Operation Avalanche, without permission, Jay criticizes his constant use of deception in his plans, angering him. He secretly cuts Jay's part almost entirely out and uh sneaks it into the Sundance Film Festival. They travel to Park City, where uh shenanigans ensue. That's my paraphrased description of this episode. And the opening credits are a tribute to Entourage. How do we all feel about this one? Kit, Michelle.

Kit 21:35

I say this every time, but I again it's so fun. This is such a fun episode. And as Michelle mentioned earlier, I also have a lot of moments with this where I'm like, I need to know how this was done. Um, but yeah, I love this episode.

Michelle 21:49

Loved it. Really, really good, really strong one. Um torn torn between wanting to know how the sausage got made and um and and And then just pretending.

Steve 22:02

It's it's such a treat because this is one of the few that um my wife has been in the room with me while I watched. And she's always like, How the f he couldn't have? Like it's just like a series of looking up from her laptop being like, Did they just no? And I think that's like the beauty going out of this is that like every two minutes you could look up and be like, Did that guy just do this? No.

Michelle 22:24

I think Barry, you talked a little bit about like being able to spot things and like knowing things as someone from Toronto. And like the three of us are not from Toronto, have not been to Toronto yet. And well, you gotta come. I mean, this is uh We've discussed a trip. Um very excited to eventually make it there, but like lots of secret things of like I and I've also never been to Park City, I've never been to Sundance, I don't know those theaters either. So it's um it's so great to have an expert on who who can tell us about different Toronto theaters. Have you been to Sundance as well?

SPEAKER_00 22:58

I have I have never been to Sundance, uh to my great regret. And now I will never really go because the festival has moved from there, or then you know the next edition will be in um Boulder. Uh so I don't so I don't know the you know geography of that. Um, but you know, I've been following and reading about it for long enough that I have some kind of vague semblance of a of a place. Yeah. Uh Toronto, of course, I I've have uh at the I was born and raised here, and I've lived in no other city. So I know it fairly well. Uh and I know its theaters fairly well. Um that's why the the Royal uh on College Street, uh which is in the little Italy neighborhood of Toronto, which inspired its own movie, uh, which we can devote a separate podcast to.

Steve 23:51

I would love to talk about that movie because I've seen the Hayden Christensen one?

SPEAKER_00 23:55

The Hayden Christensen one, yes. Um that's that's uh yeah, that's a thing.

Michelle 24:00

Yeah, we'll bring you back on when we when we get to the post-Nirvana the band.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

I will say I'll I'll give you a hint. I did I did the junket for that. So I spoke with Hayden Christensen while he was here in Toronto for it. Did I speak with Emma Roberts as well? I think I may have. Um, I'll have to look back on that. Um widely mocked and reviled in its home city. Don't worry. Um But uh yeah, you know, like that's why like watching this, I was like some of the trickery was unmasked immediately for me because I was like, that's the lobby of the royal, and that's the projection room of the royal. And also I recognize a couple people in the audience there um as Tron of Cinephiles. Um, so I was like, I knew what was going on, but at the same time, you're like, okay, but they're still stitching it together quite um expertly. And um it was just so fun to realize in real time as you're watching this, like what they're doing. And then to think back on it, was like, well, how did they do that? Because you know, they were in Sundance for this, and then they decided afterward to you know recontextualize it by doing that. And it's just yeah, it kind of does blow your mind um in in more than a few ways.

Steve 25:15

Yeah, yeah. I I know it's not the same thing, but um I have this thing. So I'm born and raised in Queens, New York. That's where you know where I'm from. And it's obscenely cheap to shoot at my college, Queens College for the city university of New York. I cannot tell you the number of times they'll be watching a movie or a TV show where they're in like a completely different city, sometimes a different country, and they need to either go to a theater or a classroom, and it was my city-run university. And it's that way through the magic. Like, you're supposed to be in Chicago talking to like a doctor, and you're in the music building of a small city-run college in Queens.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Yeah. I mean, you know, Toronto uh has a long history of standing in or of being a stand-in, right? Like it has a long history of playing New York, it has a long history of playing Chicago. It can be any major metropolis that you need it to be. Um, like there is a corridor of buildings downtown that looks very like, you know, downtown New York, like um, you know, midtown. And you always see it cordoned off with movie cameras because and like, you know, the checkered cabs, because that's what they're shooting there. And, you know, growing up among that, as I imagine, you know, Matt and his collaborators did, there's such a strong desire to subvert that.

SPEAKER_06 26:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Um, and you know, that's what they've did certainly with the with the web series and with the Vicent series, and you know, intensely with the movie. Um, so I think that that is why this like element of that plays so strongly. Um, because we have Toronto masked as something else, but yet for those who know, it is very much not what that is. Um, so just like the sleight of hand works both ways, and I think that's really smart.

Steve 27:02

There was a great quote from Jay uh from an interview right before the Vice Land series came out, where he said, like they were originally shooting the web series to be like any city in the world, and then they slowly started to realize how important Toronto was to it, and then Toronto became so core to it. So, you know, even in shooting, they figured out like that it was important to subvert it. And I thought that was really interesting that they started at that, like, this is a blank slate of a city, and then realized they wanted to highlight it.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Yeah. Well, I mean, it speaks to like the the the kind of you know, the the crucial existential crisis of any Canadian, especially any Canadian artist or filmmaker, is like, do you want to admit that you're Canadian? Or do you want to, you know, because we're the only people who can English speak in the English-speaking world who can kind of mask ourselves as Americans with relative ease. And because we're next door to the great big giant cultural behemoth that is America, it's just that much more temptation to do so. Um, and you know, the great thing is, like, again, like and you know, you can speak to this in detail more, but you know, Matt and the team is very insistent, they're not going anywhere. Like Toronto is their base of operations and they want to make Canadian films and they want to support the Canadian industry. And that is such like a, you know, total shift in attitude for a lot of people in working in the arts is like the goal is to break into America. You like you typically like, you know, you make a small little thing here and that gets noticed, and you're able to get your, you know, 180B vi visa and go to Hollywood uh and start making actual money. Um and uh yeah, so I think like that inferiority complex really uh runs through a lot of of the Nirvana work.

Steve 28:55

One of the things I'd love to ask Matt and Jay about is, and you quote this in one of your reviews, like the movie's original plot was them going through America in multiple cities. Yeah. Just the more we deep dive into this, and especially with the stuff you're saying, that seems like that would have been an utter disaster because it would take away such this key element of what makes it so special.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Well, I think you know, that's having not seen any of that footage, um, but knowing that it exists and knowing, you know, where they went, like I think that's what they realized when they came back. Um, is that there's just it doesn't quite work, or there's not really a movie here or something. You know, the original, maybe this was Matt kind of just like pulling one on me, but like when I first when I spoke to him on the BlackBerry tour about like what was going on next, he said they were making the Nirvana movie, but the initial idea, again, maybe this was just like unformed or him, you know, just uh shooting off ideas was they're gonna go to Europe and it was gonna be a European kind of tour, it's like it's gonna get famous in Italy and you know, the kind of like a European vacation kind of thing. And then at some point, I guess it you know it switched to America. Um, you know, not to say like I I'm dying to see what they came up with there. Um, but you're right, like it does it does take it out of the out of its element um and kind of loses potentially that specificity that has made it so strong, and I feel has speak and has spoken to audiences around the world. Um, you know, I can't, you know, I've seen you know, since the film has opened every so many places, like, you know, I think I saw one tweet that said, you know, it's like it's made like Toronto like some like giving it a mythic level of cool. It's like it's like Tokyo. People want to come and like this guy was like, Well, Toronto, you know, I would never put it in that category at all before then, but I can kind of see it now, um, in a little bit, like the way that it has mythologized um certain landmarks and um yeah, so it's it, you know, I think like you know, it's the best tourism ad um Toronto could have ever come up.

Steve 31:06

It made me want to go. Yeah. Yeah. The specificity of it, I think, was I think a little bit rooted in why we ended up starting the show, which was like the three of us walked out of it and we kind of like jokingly like, oh, let's just like this and this deep care of friendship and their connection to what they do made us go like, let's just make a thing together. And that's part of the reason this podcast spawned. And I and I I think their specificity of where they are from and their love of their city like grounds it emotionally in a really inspiring way.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Completely. And that that notion of also like let's make a thing together is like the is set is the wonderful push-pull of the whole thing, because this is something that they did just make together, a group of people, and yet every episode is about how they want to kill each other and how they're like constantly on the verge of breaking up and walking away. Um, and yet they find themselves always looping back toward being together because there's this like almost like it's a great commentary on like just the effort of artistic collaboration. Like, there's like a really like toxic codependence that's uh almost essential to creating something um with people. Like you are you you cannot go it alone, um especially in you know the medium of television or film, like you need these people, um, and sometimes you want to kill them more often than times. You want to kill them, and you you know, but yet you're always drawn back together if you want this thing to actually reach the world. And we always see Matt and Jay at each, you know, on the verge, if not past the point of dissolution. And yet at the end of every episode, they come back together, and at the beginning of every episode, they're starting a new plan.

Steve 32:54

I know we're at the opening, but you know, when they're at the school at the beginning of this episode and Jay's like, I think we can get arrested for this. Like, we should not do this. Matt's like, well, then I'm gonna go fucking do it anyway. And Jay is there and he is in it and participating. Be that toxic codependency was like, Well, if Matt's doing it anyway, I guess I gotta do it. Like, they just cannot get away from each other.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

No, I mean they're they're inextricably bonded. Um, and that's I feel like, you know, that's the that's always the best way of any comic duo throughout history is like, you know, uh Wayne and Garth should, you know, chart their own paths. And you know, that we see that they're actually more successful without each other, um, but the the they can't help themselves and they're always coming back. Uh and even though one derails the plan of the other, I mean, you know, the you know, the the biggest one of the biggest influences I feel on the pair, and they've certainly spoken about it, is pinky in the brain. Um like they you know uh if they you know if they they have just the best qualities and the worst qualities that when combined, it just results in failure. Um and they never really quite recognize that um because they need each other more than they need their new respective plan to work.

Steve 34:18

How do we feel about this whole opening of them shooting a movie at a high school illegally and getting kicked out? Like being how do we all feel about the fact that this is just such a reference to him making the dirties?

Kit 34:31

Yeah, I mean, I think the first time I saw this, I had no context of Matt Johnson's filmography. I didn't know about the dirties, I didn't know about Operation Avalanche, and so I was just like, what a what an interesting choice to do for your Sundance film, I guess. Um and then reading it back and then watching it back, I was like, oh, okay, we're kind of like having a conversation with like Matt's career that happened in between the web series and now. And it sort of really recontextualizes it in that way.

Michelle 34:56

I think it's also interesting that this one is of what I've seen so far, at least, like one that doesn't start with Matt at the whiteboard explaining the plan. You're just sort of dropped into the middle of things and in and dropped into the middle of a very jarring situation. Um, but it it's it is interesting that it has that meta level in a in a way that like nothing else that I've seen so far really does um about like the work that they are actually doing themselves. Um and I think we've talked a little bit about, and Barry, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts about this, but like the idea of like as this, as the web series took up, as they got a show, like how do you grapple with the idea of like you have put out into the world of like a cartoon version of yourself, basically, and like how do you sort of balance that with your real self? And this sort of feels like one that is exploring that idea um a little bit, and you know, bringing your cartoon self to Sundance, putting on the hat and sort of becoming Matt the character instead of Matt the person, um, is really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

I feel like that's like totally the way they kind of reckon with that like growing level of awareness and you know, we can call it fame. Um, and I feel that's like speaks to like why it's such a you know relentlessly entertaining concoction because they can, you know, no matter how big they get, they can never let this initial germ of a project die. Like, you know, normally after you make something like BlackBerry and you get all kinds of awards and you get US attention and you know, etc. etc., you're on a next level, you kind of like you know, you leave childish things behind. But the goal is really like to use that semi-prestige project to actually just make the thing you were making before at the beginning bigger and better and crazier. So to like take so you know, the crux of this episode, like to take their big huge shot of US fame at the Sundance Film Festival and to instead of treat it very seriously and with the utmost professionalism and care, they totally hijack themselves um in order to make this passion project uh work is like really fearless and reckless in a way that you cannot help but you know admire.

Steve 37:32

Well, it almost says to me, like, well, if this thing blows up, I still got Nirvana the Band, baby. That's true.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

Yeah, that's exactly I mean that is exactly it. Like that, you know, like and a recognition of you know how the Hollywood game works, like because that stuff can blow up in an instant. Like you you can sure, you can be one of the 70 films accepted to Sundance out of like hundred submitted. So you've already broken the lottery there. But are you gonna be one of the ones that actually gets picked up for distribu, like one of the you know, half dozen that gets picked up for distribution in a major way and then goes on to something else, or are you gonna disappear into the ether? Um, so it is, you know, a recognizing the stakes and the odds and the probability of breaking through and saying, like, we're gonna have a good time regardless.

Michelle 38:25

Honest, this does sort of feel like an idea that is being grappled with in BlackBerry too, is like, you know, do you stay true to the idea at the core of this operation, or do you like just pursue success at all costs and like leave yourself behind? And it's very clear which side of that Matt thinks is the right one. Of course. Um, like and oh, sorry, go ahead. It's so cool to like see someone who is like so like publicly and firmly committed to that idea and like not just talking about it, but also living it.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

I mean, I think like failure is the MO of uh of these guys. Like it is all about embracing failure and not being afraid of it and using it to you know pull vault to the next thing. Um again, like you know, the the movie is a great example of that because they sh, you know, they shot this whole other movie and they realized it was a failure, and they had to go out and do it again, and that was fine. Just as you know, every episode ends with a failure and then starting it over. Um, and you know, this episode in particular is just like a series of you know, they like get this moment of success and then they self-sabotage themselves. Um, and then they just you know they use that as the fuel to keep going. Um so it's there's like a like an interesting kind of element of self-punishment um from it. Uh that I yeah, there's you know, there's layers to this.

Steve 40:00

Matt and Jay are still churning out like these intro videos for the movies, whereas it's like opening in other countries and like still doing a bunch of press for it. While what I think might be arguably Matt's potential biggest breakthrough to American audiences is like doing preview screenings as we speak on this call. And I think that is so interesting to see like the way he is as the character and also in real life. It's just like, well, I'm still gonna keep promoting Nirvana the band, the show of the movie. I know it came out like in February, and I know I have Tony coming out like as we speak, but I'm gonna stick with this other thing too. And I still see way more press for that than the big A24 movie. I think that just says a lot about the guy.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Yeah, I mean, you know, he you the the other kind of funny thing is like the character of Matt is portrayed as like such like you know uh anywhere who, you know, just does not follow through on anything and has no real discipline, um, except when it's disciplined to something ludicrous. Whereas of course, like the real, you know, is relentless workaholic, which you have to be uh to to produce so much over such a long period of time. Um and uh it's a great commentary on you know what you actually have like the the the appearance versus the commitment and the discipline that it takes to look so disorganized.

Steve 41:28

Oh, without a doubt. Because they have this scene that comes up next where like Matt, you know, Jay is you rant at Matt about sneaking. All of our plans are sneaking. Sneaky, sneaky sneaky sneaky, sneak, sneaky. And Matt just impulsively, I think out of fear. Like promises Jay to make him the star, right? And then is frantically realizing I just promised a thing I have absolutely no ability to follow through on. And then it's just like like a maniac editing together this movie with no real creative like decision making, just scrambles. Like the one time he can't do a reshoot and fix it the edit, basically. And then immediately more sneaking. Yep. It's perfect. And the uh to keep continuity, Jay's giant boner. Continuity from the banner.

Michelle 42:18

I don't I didn't notice that until um like the third time I watched this episode in preparation for recording, and it's uh very jarring.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

The making him making Jay the star, that promise there is also like really fascinating, I feel, because again, that that you know lays the groundwork, I feel, for a lot of what the movie is. Um because you know, in the alternate nightline, Jay is the star, uh, and you know, is Mr. Hollywood. Um and that speaks again to like the the real-world kind of you know uh fame game or recognition of of what's going on with the actual Vat and Jay. Um, because you know Jay wasn't on screen in in BlackBerry and certainly you know heavily involved, but he wasn't on screen and you know Matt has then you know used, you know, that has faulted him into a certain kind of uh recognized as if Jay, the lead, the star in this alternate reality is you know, is quite telling.

Steve 43:21

I have a history on the show of over-cycleanalyzing both of these characters and the people who play them. I wonder if with the creation of this episode, Jay was processing some stuff. I know we've talked about the themes are in there, right? But like Jay is desperate on this episode in a way that he's not normally. He's normally very like go along or doing his own little plan, but there's just a level of desperation throughout this whole thing to be recognized, to be seen. And it does feel a little bit like Jay McCarroll, IRL, might be working through some complex feelings about these meta things. We've been talking about.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

I think it all kind of stems from demining that tension. And I mean, you know, the entourage opening is a fun, you know, nod to a you know, a show that was spoke to that milieu, but it also is like, is Jay Johnny drama in this situation? Um you know, how what's you know, I feel that you know nothing is accidental on screen. They what you know they might film stuff that's accidental and then but then it's always fine-tuned. Um so I I yeah, I think there's there's some truth to that.

Steve 44:37

I I have this problem with watching this show where the first time I watch an episode, I'm like laughing, having a great time. The second time, I'm like kind of looking at the creative, and then the third time I'm like emotionally broken and incredibly sad. Every single one? Pretty much. Because like when I get to this one, like the end of this one, watching it tonight, I was like, oh Jay, I'm Matt.

Kit 45:02

There's a happy ending. They go back to Toronto. Come on.

Steve 45:06

I I know we we recorded these out of order, but like we recently recorded our episode on the burger, and like I was borderline in tears at the end of that one because Matt's desperation to get physical affection from Jay just broke my heart. And and this is the episode where I felt for Jay in a way that I normally give way too much uh care into Matt. It's a tough one for Jay.

Kit 45:30

I mean, if Matt would just stop sneaking around.

Steve 45:33

True. He's always sneaking, sneaky sneak.

Michelle 45:36

I I do love as as someone who's on their sort of first watch through this show, um, this is one of the moments where I get to encounter a line and a scene that has become like a huge meme from it. And it's it's great to finally understand all the sneaking around jokes. I'm happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

I I would liken that experience to like it's like watching The Simpsons in reverse, because for me as a child, like watching The Simpsons, I would see all these, you know, references and jokes to things I didn't quite understand. And then I would see like 2001 of Space Odyssey, or then I would see Godfather or something. I was like, oh, that no, that that's what The Simpsons was. That you know, that was my first exposure to it. Um, whereas this is like the meme culture has already penetrated wide and far, and now you're getting to see the you know the reverse engineer of of how it became.

Steve 46:30

Yeah, Michelle's finally understanding why all the kids at Springfield Elementary want to watch Barton Fink. The greatest R raiders who ever made. Yeah. It and also great use of Kit's favorite picture to use, the Jay uh selfie.

Michelle 46:45

Oh, yeah, it gets a lot of screen time of Jay's little selfie.

Kit 46:49

That weird selfie. I've been tormenting you with that for months.

Steve 46:53

You send that you send that in our group chat at least once a week, I think.

Kit 46:57

It it's so funny. I'm sorry. I'm gonna use it any opportunity I have. That's great.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

I fully endorse this uh yeah, trolling.

Steve 47:05

Incredible. I mean, I've done worse. Um see two episodes ago. But uh they're on the plane, and Jay's just accepting that they got into Sundance. That they they're they Matt just uploaded it to without a box, and Sundance was like, Come on in. And it's cute how naive he is, and believing Matt of all people.

Kit 47:28

What do you mean? That is how you get into Sundance. You just you finish the edit, you just send them an email, and they're like, You're in, you got it.

SPEAKER_00 47:36

It's great. I yeah, as again, as a professional journalist, I can tell you that's a hundred percent how it works. Yeah. I love that. But I mean, you know, Jay's naivety is, you know, again, like, you know, a a constant. Um, and you know, it's very sweet. Again, like that, you know, you can't help but hear him get so excited about magically being accepted into Sundance and not immediately flash forward to him saying, like, oh, I can I can go to an open mic and a bar in Ottawa, and they'll just have me like have a gig. Amazing. Um, it's just this entirely babe's eye view of of how the world works.

Michelle 48:18

And he's gonna be on the cover of GQ, just like Adrian Grenier.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

Yeah, that's right. Everybody's it's uh it's also, I guess it's funny, like they really there's there's something between we need to ask, we need to start a Mark Wahlberger, like a Wahlberg family podcast, and see if they if the Wahlberg family has a relationship uh with knowing how much um they've been uh referenced by the Nirvana guys.

Steve 48:45

Their political takes will be top-notch the entire time.

Kit 48:50

Do we think a Wahlberger is good? I've yet to have one. I know Steve, you ran across there are still 32 of them in the world.

SPEAKER_00 48:59

Are there really I don't know if Toronto has I think it's Toronto's Wahlburger has closed. My condolences right around the corner from uh the TIFF light box, which make of that geography what you will, but I think there might still be one in Toronto's airport national. Um but this will require further uh reconnaissance.

Steve 49:20

Further investigation. It seems like an airport establishment. It's gonna go the Roy Rogers route where it's rest stops and airports until it dies. Uh we were saying uh that my local grocery store has Wahlberg's branded uh ground beef for sale, and I'm always disgusted as I walk by it.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

Yeah, I'm trying to think of who that might be an enticing offer for. Um having a having a hard time. Very niche audience. Very niche audience. Yeah.

Steve 49:47

Some very unpleasant neighbors. Uh there were we read that quote a little while ago where Matt and Jay were basically saying that the versions of themselves on Vice Land are what like two teenage boys think grown-ups do in the city. And you get so much of that when Jay like calls Dibbs on the bed because it's closer to the window. He's right though. That is the better bed. It is. See, I would prefer the other side.

SPEAKER_00 50:11

You're closer to the window, you're gonna get woken up by the sun more easily.

Steve 50:15

Yeah.

Michelle 50:15

People are gonna look a bad thing.

Kit 50:17

That's great.

Michelle 50:18

To each their own.

Steve 50:19

It says two people who don't know the pain of being woken up at 6 a.m. by a child's knee in your forehead.

Kit 50:24

If that happened, I would be deeply confused about the trajectory of my life. I'm gonna start. How did this kid get in here?

Steve 50:31

It's a reverse weapons in your house. So, you know, Matt sneaks off to uh hand off a DVD of Operation Avalanche, the projectionist. So you were saying, as I suspected, that this is in Toronto, this whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

So when he's going up to the booth there, that is a Toronto rep uh theater uh called the Royal. Yeah. Okay.

Michelle 50:53

I love the exchange with the projectionist. I I find it so funny. And like if this is a Toronto theater, like I suspect this is someone they know who they like asked to come in and sort of play a role. Um, but but the man playing the projectionist like does a great job of playing just like confused, and maybe he is, I don't know. Maybe they did like come in and sneak this and and he was not in on it. Who's who's to say?

SPEAKER_00 51:20

I mean, that's the thing, that's the fine line, right? Um who is and who isn't and uh who they're chasing afterward with permission forms and stuff like that. Uh and that's yeah, and that's that's the pleasure of it not knowing.

Michelle 51:34

Yeah, yeah. Um, because because whether he's in on it or not, he he just does an incredible job of like, yeah, we'll play your DVD, I guess. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:43

Well, I think you know, they've spoken a lot about how um it took him so long uh in the movie to find the woman who the tourist um out front of the CN Tower. Um and they went through so many people trying to get like the just the right person to give her give like this like very, you know, unknowing, organic performance. Uh and they finally found this woman. Um, and uh so that's like again, like you know, when you're playing with real fire, um you gotta be, you know, it it's really hard to capture the lightning in a bottle to use real mixed metaphors here. Um but that's uh again, like that's that's part of the the fun of it.

Steve 52:25

Takes a lot of work to look so effortless.

SPEAKER_00 52:27

Yes, that's yes, that's a cleaner way of putting it.

Steve 52:30

And I I think the camera work does a lot of heavy lifting here. Because when we've talked about this before, like Jared is kind of like peeking around the corner, and part of the lens is covered by like him like hiding in a doorway. And no matter what the interaction looks like, if it looks like your camera is hiding from being seen, that automatically adds credibility to this being like authentic. And I think that's such a smart choice on their part.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

Completely. And I mean, like, you know, for this episode in particular, like I remember Jared telling me he's like, it was kind of a bummer because they were in Sundance to celebrate this thing, and yet they were still having to like Jared was like at the premiere party hiding behind like the the caterers because he was he was doing the work, and he was like, you know, I think by the time they were done, he was like the drinks, the bar was closed, so he wasn't even able to enjoy the open bar. Like um, this is this is the pains of being pure at arts. Uh you know, you you miss the orchards and the the open cocktails.

Steve 53:31

Well, it's like you know, when you get married and you miss the whole like cocktail hour and a half of the beginning of the wedding taking photos. That's what's the resume.

SPEAKER_00 53:39

But uh the the kind of secret is that like if you ever see like the guys, you know, at a big thing like an awards show, and you don't see Jared somewhere, that means it's being filmed.

Steve 53:51

That's a that makes a shocking amount of sense. So did have we all watched the Nirvana the band cut of Operation Avalanche? Yes, yeah, it's so good. Barry, have you watched this the the fake movie? Okay, because this is the most web series era Matt Johnson we see in in terms of content, I feel like on the Vice Land show. Just pure edgelord. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How how did everybody feel about the that that cut?

Michelle 54:22

Oh, it was great. I have not yet seen the dirties. Um, I am interested in seeing how they compare. Um because like just now and go watch it. From what I know about it, from what I've heard so far, like there is a lot of overlap um between those. And uh, but like what a lovely five-minute bit.

Steve 54:47

I love when he's like, I know your real name, Jay McCarroll, part of Nirvana the band.

Kit 54:53

Gotta get that promo in there.

Steve 54:55

And the Goldeneye sound effects really make it.

Kit 54:57

Oh, they are Goldeneye, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00 55:00

Oh yeah. Yeah. See, this is why it's like, again, it like it's so spot. You know, it's like this Proustian effect or whatever. You know, it's just like, uh, I know what this is. Uh it's yeah. Um it's it's very, it's very funny.

Steve 55:14

Yeah, I was born in 1984, so like almost all of their reference points are like exactly the same points where I was.

SPEAKER_00 55:21

So I'm 83, so yeah, exact.

Steve 55:24

We're we're we're in the Matt and Jay era. So um, yeah, so I when I first saw this, and then I did it again, was like, was there uh like a sheep movie? Sheep movie, right? They say they were showing sheep, sheep. Yeah, I was like, was there a sheep movie at Sundance that year? And I like went through the list of everything there. And I think there was a movie named after some other animal that they might have pulled it from. Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 55:49

Yeah, I mean, every every film festival in its history is gonna have a sheep movie. Um the odds are in its favor.

Steve 55:56

And sometimes they're solving murders. The best case scenario. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

Yeah.

Steve 56:02

This is a pro-sheep detectives podcast. Very much so.

Michelle 56:06

Yeah.

Steve 56:07

So I don't know if this was meta or just connections. So Matt uh it goes over interestingly, the movie when he sneaks it in, and a film critic comes up to him and is like, Do you have time for an interview? And then we have Matt doing interviews, and then they Jay starts seeing the news footage of Matt. And I wonder if it was an intentional choice to only show like Canadian outlets. It's gotta be, right? Because I think that adds this level of, well, Matt is now famous in Canada, and not just Matt got famous at Sundance.

SPEAKER_00 56:37

Yeah, because I mean I think the only ones who are watching the performance of that movie were the Canadian outlets. Because I mean, this you know, this is my job. Like any film festival announces its lineup, it's like, who's the Canadians? And it's got any guy, you know, control F Canada. Um and that and uh that's that's that's what the that's what we do. That's what we do.

Steve 57:01

I was like, if they wanted to, they could have called in a favor to like MTV News or whatever to get that out there. But I just thought that was an interesting touch. But I love that they didn't. Yeah, yeah, they do.

Michelle 57:11

Also, I I love the fake Chiron on the like second TV clip that is uh Canuck run amok. It's one of my favorite small jokes from this episode.

Steve 57:24

That is a very Michelle joke.

Michelle 57:28

Um, I also love that Jay is in a full tuxedo for the entire time that they're in Sundance. Yeah. And that he had it ready to go when he was woken up at six o'clock in the morning. It's so cute. He's such a little boy sometimes.

Steve 57:44

Well, he's the star of the movie. It's true. Gotta be in a tux. But he gets mad at Matt for sneaking the movie in. And then, like, when Jay realizes he's cut out, we meant I missed mentioning this part when Jay realizes he's cut out, he starts blaming everything on Matt. This guy's snucking in, he's always sneaking.

Kit 57:59

But and that's what catapults Matt to flame. Yeah. You know, specifically Jay loudly pointing and saying that.

Steve 58:07

Matt got famous on sneaking gets you everywhere. The flashback is so interesting. Where it's like Matt being like, Well, what if you have to sneak around for a friend? And this is representative, I feel like, of Matt, the characters in her monologue, where he's like, I'm doing all of this for us, and you're just being mean to me. And it's just interesting to see, like, yeah, that's how Matt, the character, saw that interaction with Jay was I'm just trying to do something for us, and you're bullying me. I love those slow-motion flashbacks.

Michelle 58:42

This is when they go into the to Matt doing interviews and and sort of going on the press circuit. Um, and then Jay shows up.

Steve 58:51

So there was a quote, I will have to say, it was from one of your interviews, Mary, from Matt, where he was talking about the show and he said, Um, one of the biggest enemies of good creative work is needing to explain it. And I know that's counterintuitive because if you're a good filmmaker, you should be able to explain what you're doing. But trying to explain something that it in your mind is kind of very magical is incredibly trying. Um, making your bottom of the band the show is not a shadow play like the Big Bang Theory, where every joke has to go through a complicated explanation process because we're free of that here. We can explore. And I feel like the way Matt is describing Operation Avalanche in this is very much like, well, I don't have to explain this to you, I just snuck it. This is what I do. I created this thing. It speaks for itself. The meta levels on this kind of hurt my brain on like the third watch.

SPEAKER_00 59:38

Yeah, I mean, that's why again, like I think this is like such an emblematic episode of what they're doing as a whole. Um, because it works on all these different tracks and all these different tracks of audience understanding. You can be fresh to the show and just take it as this like really crazy, absurd kind of romp. You can know the history of these guys inside out and realizing all the twisting and turning that they're doing to make it um speak to their own history and legacy. Um and you know, I feel it just like, you know, again, like being in that same era of them and growing up on you know, all these things that were so dependent on like this like insane talmic understanding of uh chronology and knowing what like a retcon is, um, and knowing what canon is and and everything like that. It's just like the way that it plays with it and plays with expectations of you know myth building um and reality and not reality and and trickery and and sneaking. Uh you know, it's sneaking, you know, it's it's sneaking its own lore into the show.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:01

Yeah. Um, and that's what uh gets it that gets me every time. Yeah. And and then there's the element of like you trying to explain it to an uninitiated audience member. And yeah, just like you know, that quote was like you know, it's kind of impossible. And that's why at the beginning of writing about this for the Globe and Mail in my newspaper, it was so hard because it was it's like, okay, it's this, but it's also this, and no, it has nothing to do with Kirk Cobain, and you know, yada yada yada, and like there's all this like throat clearing that you could do, and sometimes you have to do, um, especially for like a mainstream newspaper audience. But then again, you can just take you can just jump in if you really wanted to, um, and it would be no problem. And uh again, like, you know, to bring it back to the movies, like, you know, when they were making it, I don't know if there was a lot of discussion, but and I'm certain that there was some about like what they are they going to call this thing because it's the level of the barrier to entry is theoretically so high. Um but then again, maybe it's not. Maybe you just call it what it is and people get you know, go into it wondering, okay, what or not? Um and and the thing sells itself. Um because yeah, again, like you know, I was at the South by Southwest premiere of it of the movie, and I was very curious, is like, well, I'm I have a good idea how I know I'm going to react and my excitement levels. And you know, there were certainly people in there who were fans of the show and fans of Blackberry. But I spoke to a number of people afterward who were just like regular like Austinites who want, you know, heard that there's like a min, you know, like a comedy, and they're like, No, I have no idea what this thing was. I'd never heard of Blackberry before. And I was like, Did you get it? And they're like, Yeah, of course I got it. It's just with like two doofases like doing a back to the future thing. I was like, Yeah, I mean, great. So if you get it, like on the one level, like again, like this episode, you can get it's like two doofases trying to get into a film festival and like you know, screwing each other over in the process, and that's great and fun and and entertaining, but if you get the other stuff, it's just like one chamber of understanding being unlocked after the other, um, yeah, which makes it again like so completely and opposite to the structure and purpose of a big bang theory or um you know a growing pains episode to you know poke fun at another um intro. Uh yeah. So yeah, it's so it's wonderful.

Steve 1:03:42

When I when I saw the movie, it was like a half full theater, and I was the only one crying at the end of the movie. Because I think everyone else was like a romp, and I was like, and we've told everybody to watch the movie before listening, so I was just like, Matt died for Jay. That's so sweet. It's everything they've led to is this. And then people were like, haha, he exploded. There's a hat rolling, and I was just like devastated for like an hour.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:06

Yeah, I mean, it's like it's what you bring your own emotional investment or lack thereof to it.

Michelle 1:04:12

I mean, I came into the movie completely blind and just like on the recommendation of friends, they're like, You're gonna love this, don't watch anything else before you go into it. Um and I loved it, and I did cry at the end. And it was great. And here you are. And here I am. And it's and it is really funny to sort of like as we move through the show and like I'm watching things sort of like mostly before we record, just getting to unravel all of these layers of like that's where that thing came from, and that's where that thing came from, and like they reinterpreted something that they did 15 years ago. Um and it's and it's such a joy to get to understand how all these pieces fit together.

Steve 1:04:53

And that's what's really cool, also, about you know, the fact that we covered the web series for the podcast, is so much of the Vice Land series is in conversation with the web series, and then the movie's in conversation with both of them, and it's just it'll make your head spin if you think about it too much, which we do. We get Jay playing, you know, the piano on the bar with this woman who I love, just like asks him to play piano man, like I'm gonna be mean for a minute. That's your only request when you got a guy playing piano. What should this man on a piano play? Oh, piano man. I love her.

Michelle 1:05:32

She's a queen. She knows what she likes, and she likes Billy Joel.

Steve 1:05:38

I mean, I like Billy Joel too, but come on, there's better ones. But and even Jay can't sit with it because I at least ask for Vienna. Scenes from an Italian restaurant make him sit there for seven minutes or whatever. But I love how quickly Jay then just picks up the phone to call Matt. I gotta call him. Like he plays what, like four notes? It's really funny. She does the full intro, but it is sped up.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:02

They get uh I think that's you know the most you can do for fair use without having to I didn't know they actually truly cared about fair use.

Steve 1:06:10

I I thought they just did whatever they wanted and then screamed fair use.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:14

I mean, I think uh, you know, they do have they've mentioned their lawyer, uh Chris Perez, uh many times. Um and as you know, as much as I think Vice Land was a you know roguish operation in accordance with its mothership's philosophy, they still, you know, they still had lawyers uh and they still had all legal obligations. This is not the wild west of the web series.

Steve 1:06:39

Yeah. Uh because you're at the uh South by Southwest screening, I'm curious. I've heard mixed reports. Did it actually have the Back to the Future music, or did they have the J sound alike?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:49

Okay, so I'm almost it, you know, I struggle to remember exactly, but I I know for a fact that they had instead of Johnny be good in the in the montage sequence, they used the power of love by Hugh Ellis.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:09

And that eventually didn't fly for rights issues or it was cost too much or something.

Steve 1:07:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:15

So that that was one musical cue that didn't make it out. I feel that the score otherwise was pretty similar to what uh was the sound alike that that ended up with it. The only other part that I struggle to mem remember is in the CN Tower scene when they're going up, I felt there was a little bit more um Han Zimmer Dark Knight Echoes. I know it's there in the cut that it made me out into the world, like it's still like the echoes are there. I felt it was a little more stronger when I saw it that first time. Because that's something that really stuck with me. I was like, oh my god, this is so brilliant. Um yeah, so those those were the two.

Steve 1:07:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:00

Yeah.

Steve 1:08:00

I was curious because you know, it it on the internet it was because it was this one screening and there was just so much buzz, and not that many people from like fan groups even saw it. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:11

And I mean it was it's hard, it's so hard to remember like in the moments. Uh and I will say, like, again, like that screening was like right, like there were several moments of dialogue drowned out because people were laughing so hard. So again, that kind of contributes to the mixed memory of it.

Steve 1:08:27

It sounds like that infamous opening night of cats that I went to when that came out, but the the entire theater had a psychotic break at the same time. No, what happened? No. A friend of the show, Emily and I went to go see cats in the AMC 34th Street across from Macy's opening night, sold-out crowd, and it starts, and everyone starts laughing, except for one woman who starts screaming at everybody to shut up, and then she left, and then the audience had a psychotic break, and we were all just singing cat songs at the top of our lungs the entire time.

Kit 1:09:01

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:02

The the last great hurrah before COVID killed movie theaters for a while.

Steve 1:09:07

Yeah, that's that level of riotist just makes me think that. Like, and it people, it was bonkers. Everybody was just like cheering and screaming for 90 minutes straight at cats.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:19

Yeah, there wasn't a lot of screaming necessarily. There was there's cheering at this for sure. Yeah, like uh, you know, definitely like from the get-go, just like what when army comes on, yeah, uh people were just kind of like clapping along, and like it was clear the theater was with it. We were locked in.

Steve 1:09:38

That rocks, it's so that vibe of everybody here, we're all in on it, like and and riding this together is like the best theatrical feeling in the world.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:46

Yeah, totally, totally.

Steve 1:09:48

So to when I saw um Museum of Moving Image showed a sing along of K-pop Demon Hunters once, the the vibe of children cheering like that was also just like we're all locked in that rules. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. Movies, they're great. Um so how many of these celebrities do you think knew who Matt Johnson was between Rob Zombie and Emilio Esteves and Adrian Cranie?

Michelle 1:10:12

And Nick Jonas. Nick Jonas, sorry. I guess didn't interact with him, but he was there.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:16

I'm gonna say a strong 0%.

Kit 1:10:20

As I suspected.

Steve 1:10:23

I want like an 10% of his confidence. Oh, just I'm gonna walk up to Rob Zombie and secretly film him for my TV show.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:30

I feel if I had like 2% of his confidence, I would get like killed so easily. I feel it's like it's it's like equal measures confidence and sheer luck.

Steve 1:10:43

Yeah. That I always think, like, how has he not been arrested for anything?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:50

That's true.

Steve 1:10:50

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:53

I mean, like in the in the States, I feel like I think this is one thing they told me uh when they were doing the movie in the States, they were filming you know, filming those portions. And they were shocked at how polite law enforcement was, uh, and like helpful in resolving situations. Um and you know, I feel like you know, the Canadian perspective of law enforcement, it was like, ah, it's it's the Gestapo. Um But uh maybe you know law enforcement here is is worse than it is in the States. I don't know. Um, but you know, here there's also like a little bit more as like understanding of uh, you know, live and let live. Uh if you've got if you're wielding a camera, you know, we'll just let you do whatever you want to do.

Steve 1:11:38

Hey, if you're a handsome white guy in America, the uh cops are gonna treat you great.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:42

I guess the odds are in your favor. Yeah.

Steve 1:11:45

You got that Jay McCarroll smile, you'll be fine. So we gotta talk about Kevin Smith, right? Because he also adds to the meta level of this whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:54

Yeah. I mean, you know, Smith is so integral to the guy's entire careers. Uh and you know, talk, you know, the one celebrity who's in on it uh in this episode uh is is good old Kev. Um and it you know, it's funny, uh you know, I you know, I used to be, of course, like in that generation, like I grew up on Kevin Smith, but I have not followed, you know, I've certainly lost that uh following for him. And I'm not sure, you know, if he's really like uh I haven't investigated whether he's like, you know, been cheerleading the guys on still, um or what the association is. Um, but you know, again, if you knew that he promoted, you know, he had a huge hand in the dirties and slam dance and everything like that, to see him pop up here uh as this, you know, like almost like wonderful life kind of figure of this angel, the guardian angel, uh, which is the role he played in in their real life. Uh it's very, it's very amusing.

Steve 1:12:57

I too was very into Kevin Smith in my youth, you know, same generation, how that went down. But I think Kevin Smith has kind of turned into almost this like super emotional heart on his sleeve elder statementsman of film. Where like, look, I have a sick disease where I watch every Jay and Solomon Bob movie, even though I haven't liked one since I was like 18 years old. Oh but like the the sincerity and heart with which he's like, hey man, I got a friend named Jay and I stuck with him forever. Yeah, yeah.

Kit 1:13:29

Yeah.

Steve 1:13:30

That that was like half acting. That was half this guy genuinely sharing like what his experience with you know Jay Mews has been. They're still doing Jay and Solitab. I watched the Napa Boys this year, and Jay and Solid Bob are in it. I need to watch the Napa Boys. What? Spoil spoilers, sorry about that. But that's a it came out a year ago, that's fine. Napa Boys is very fun. I really enjoyed it, but I was just like, they're still doing it.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:58

Well, I mean, you know, it is it's also interesting, you know, again, from the Canada of it all, like Kevin and Jay's relationship to Canadian culture runs deep, uh, you know, deeper than Nirvana, certainly like that, you know, they were on the reboot of Degrassi because they were so into Degrassi. Jay has, I think, had like a recurring role on one of Canada's longest running scripted dramas, which is called Murdoch Mysteries.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:25

Um, which is about a detective in old timey Canada investigating. Incredible.

Michelle 1:14:31

Um playing like the characters. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:36

Play like no, no, no, that would be too inaccurate. Um, I don't know who he plays. I just know he's been involved in it in in certain fashion.

Michelle 1:14:45

That would be incredible to see him just like show up in old timey Canada.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:50

To see how Snoochie Boochies over a murder fiction. And we know like the Kevin Smith's like last few horror films have all been like Canada-centric. Yeah. Um the guy's got a guy's got a real thing for Canada.

Steve 1:15:06

I've often say, love the man, don't like the films.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:09

But yeah, I mean, I'm yeah, I'm sure you know, I'm sure Clerks holds up. Uh maybe it doesn't. I'm sure the clerks cartoon holds up. I remember very fond memories of that.

Steve 1:15:19

I very much enjoyed that. Uh along has anyone on this call seen Clerks 3? Is that I don't think so. What is the second one with Rosario Dawson?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:27

Yes. And there's a third one?

Steve 1:15:29

Yes. Who's in this is who's in that? The ghost of Rosario Dawson. We're gonna I just want to get into Clerks 3 just for a minute because I think it's relevant here. So, like, Kevin Smith has this heart attack that almost kills him, right? And he could kind of also make whatever he wants as long as it's on a reasonable budget. And instead of going and doing, I don't know, something else, he's like, I am going to reckon with the fact that I almost died by making an incredibly depressing Clerks 3 about death. What? So as we are talking about, like, you know, Matt always going back to Nirvana the band because that's his home place. Kevin Smith goes back to Clerks in a movie where I'm gonna spoil it here. Like, Dante has a heart attack, decides he's gonna make a movie about working in a convenience store. And it ends with him dying and not resolving things with his best friend. And it's clearly Kevin Smith working through I need to go back to this world to reckon with what it would be like if the people I loved lost me.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:26

I'm just looking through the assessment of this movie that I'm just finding out existed. And feeling very nostalgic and very sad. Um I guess are not mutually divorced feelings, but uh it was a one star on letterboxed made me cry movie.

Steve 1:16:44

Wow. But a rare combination. I mean movies that make me cry are not rare, but you know, but no, that that's another guy who just like he has enough clout that he could just make like a drama or whatever, but he was like, I'm gonna go back to clerks to the point where a professional film critic was like, Holy fuck, they make clerks three. I just think that's really I think that adds a layer of him in this episode to that as well. Is like this is a guy on a similar trajectory, but a little lower, lower cloud.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:17

I'm also just now discovering there was a Jan Silent Bob strike back sequel.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:22

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:22

It's like this is uh this is disturbing knowledge I'm getting in real time.

Michelle 1:17:28

You know, that's what this podcast is me dropping disturbing knowledge on people.

Kit 1:17:33

Yeah.

Michelle 1:17:34

Yeah, I think that's that is the biggest running theme secondary to Nirvana the Band, the show, is is Steve Chair's surprising and sometimes upsetting information.

Kit 1:17:45

I'm I'm just grateful it's about a movie and not just like posts they saw on threads, an Instagram app.

Steve 1:17:51

Which by the way, I'm still not back on threads, just for the listeners who are wondering. But horror show. But anyway, I just want I wanted to touch on that because I do also think it's interesting that Kevin Smith's kind of seems like the American version of this. Like launched a successful, like subversive indie film career, has like some major stuff happen, and his first choice is to go back to the thing that launched him. And I just I just think that's a really interesting parallel between him and Matt.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:19

Totally. Equally nice.

Steve 1:18:20

So Matt tries drinking for the first time. So now we've had coffee, cigarettes, and booze, where all of which he responds to like a five-year-old.

Kit 1:18:27

The Holy Trifecta. Is this what drinking's like?

Steve 1:18:31

Uh, a kind of attractive but scary woman tells you how to drink and then abandons you.

Michelle 1:18:35

Yeah. There are there are some uh great sidewalk interactions in this episode. Earlier in the episode, when Jay is talking to some people, he's like, You want to hang out? And they're like, No. This stranger interaction stressed me out so much to watch of this drunk woman being like, You've never had a drink before. Here, chug my flask of vodka. And uh it's just it's just wild. Have you never had that happen? Nope.

Steve 1:19:02

It's strictly a sundance phenomenon, yeah. Yeah, sundance tradition. I don't know. There are a lot of punk shows where people were shoving shots in my face, even though I don't drink back in the day.

Michelle 1:19:12

Maybe at a concert, it's not that weird, but just like random passerby on the street does feel unclean. A little bit. Maybe I'm just not hanging out in cool enough spaces. Or maybe if I were hanging out with Kevin Smith, someone would offer me free alcohol.

Steve 1:19:28

But I wanted to follow her story so much that she just walked up and was like, this guy's like this like man child was like, I've never drunk before, and she's just feeding him vodka from a flask. And then uh Jay finds Matt passed out in the snow. Kind of seminal.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:43

That's like you know, coming, typical coming of age moment for any Canadian. Um passing out in the snow. Passed out in the snow, yeah.

Steve 1:19:53

Do they often get phone calls where the caller ID says Sundance?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:57

Yeah, of course. I mean, you know, we're a very small country, so there's not a lot of us. So yeah.

Steve 1:20:02

And we're always getting invited to film festivals. But um Jay decides he's gonna go to Matt's premiere, and uh so this was the actual premiere of Operation Avalanche. Is that Sun or is that a Canadian theater where Jay goes out and that theater is way too big, uh so it is the actual, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:21

Okay.

Steve 1:20:22

Because it seemed legit because the reactions on the crowd are amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:26

Yeah, and it is just too big of a crowd. Um, you would not unless you were yeah, no, that's real. That's that's legit.

Steve 1:20:35

There's this one woman that looks like Maria Bamford when she plays her mom and she just looks like this. Like, oh my! And I loved her so much. Like everybody is just aghast that the Jay has stormed the stage and is talking about his role in this.

Kit 1:20:54

I mean, people wanted to hear his origin story, and he's he's gonna give it. So thank God Matt comes out there to the Jay McCarroll story. Yeah.

Michelle 1:21:03

This is this is one of the moments that I was especially curious to know like where's the line between like what they were really saying on stage and what they weren't. I think I saw uh a post somewhere on the Reddit where like the bit where um Jay is talking about what his family does for Thanksgiving when they're in Florida, it isn't is like from a podcast appearance or something. Like that is not something he was actually talking about on stage that's like edited in audio. Um, but I just like have no clue what the rest of it is. And I love that they are willing, like even on this big a platform, like we've been talking about, to just like we're gonna take two minutes to talk to like be in character for our goofy show. Um even in front of like all of these important film people. Um, this is what's most important to us. It's great.

Steve 1:21:59

It's really touching. I'm gonna risk blowing up my like Hollywood break uh to do funny bits with my friends is really beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:06

No, it is, and I mean they are uh, you know, they are also like um it should be noted, they're ADR masters, right? Um whatever might be coming, whatever we might be hearing may not have been uttered a million miles near that stage.

Steve 1:22:20

Oh, a hundred percent. I I know this is not the episode, and I'll talk about it when we get to this one, but like uh when I was watching The Bank the other day, and now that I'm watching this like more critically and not just I'm gonna throw on my guys that I love, like the editing on the 3D gun printing is just like your guys are masters of just like ADR and quick cuts and whatever, and it's just it's a the fact that they didn't get nominated for editing at the Screen Awards is bonkers.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:47

Oh, it's uh it is a very controversial um uh decision moment instance up here, uh for sure. Um, there was a theory going around because uh the Canadian Screen Wives changed their eligibility nominations for this year to only honor um Canadian permanent residents or citizens because after the past few years, like last the year before, like the three three of the four top acting awards went to Americans or British people.

Steve 1:23:19

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:20

Yeah, so there was like a how about that and they changed the eligibility. So and because um so Kurt um is Canadian, but uh Bobby Robert Upchurch is American, um so there was like, oh, did they were they not able to include them because of that new rule? But I think they just they just submitted Kurt um as the editor, and it still didn't get in. And I think there was I think there was some confusion in the Academy membership of like just the sheer amount of editing um that went into this movie and how it was edited. Um I I didn't hear this from Academy members, but I heard this from some audiences who were like, um, wow, they really found like the just the right actors to portray young Matt and Jay. And I was like, no, that's them. They re-that's the whole thing. They re-edited that. It's old footage. And so it's it's funny that way. But yeah, I mean, like one of the like editing is everything in in these in the film, in the in the shows as well. Um it's really amazing.

Michelle 1:24:31

I'm curious, was sorry, just because we're talking about the awards, is what was the reaction to them winning best original song for the alphabet song? Uh it's it's crazy that they wouldn't get nominated or win for editing, but they did win for this like goofy basically throwaway joke.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:51

There is a clip go, you know, of the acceptance speech going around. Yeah. Uh like the saying like this is ridiculous. Everybody thought it was ridiculous. Um the fact that it was nominated was ridiculous, and the fact that it won equally so. So yeah, it's uh it's just like and at the same time, it almost felt inevitable. Yeah, but it yeah, so it's the greatest, dumbest moment to ever happen in Canadian stream. It's so funny. Yeah, yeah.

Steve 1:25:20

They're gonna beat Diane Warren this year at the Oscars with the alphabet.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:24

Yeah, can we please yes, that would that would be uh I hope so. Canada couldn't handle it. It just couldn't handle it. We would implode, just be no more Canada.

Steve 1:25:35

I I know I'm not a professional, I'm just a nerd who cares about movies, but I would love to see them like sweep the globes on comedy this year.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:42

I mean, you know, never say never. Um it would uh yeah, any recognition I feel would be tremendous. I don't who knows?

Michelle 1:25:50

Who knows? Oscar for best international film.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:53

I wish picture. Unfortunately, the internet you have to be foreign language. Yeah, you have to be uh 50% foreign language, and Canadian, as of yet, is not classified as a so much minions and monsters they could submit the Quebec dub, um just would be great in and of itself, but incredible. Oh yeah, with minions minionese, would that be eligible?

Steve 1:26:16

Maybe, maybe illumination should try just to see what happens. Sure, why not? They got the money, you can do it. Banana, just call it a day. Good movie, I hate to say, but um anywho. Uh we then we get to the people who walked out of the screening and Matt and Jay confronting them directly, being like, What? It's not over, you didn't like it? So was it Operation because I haven't actually seen the whole thing, but Kit, you've seen Operation Avalanche. Did you find it disturbing and too bizarre?

Kit 1:26:46

What Operation Avalanche? Not at all. No, it's not that kind of movie.

Steve 1:26:52

So I was like, were those women plants, or did they go outside like a screening of solo or something to get them? Well, are we also sure that's what actually came out of their mouths? That's true. Oh, that's true. That is true. I want it to be true. I wanted this woman to be angry and trying to politely say something was bizarre and then getting angry and saying it was disturbing.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:11

Also, actually, were those women coming out of the eckles or were they coming out of the royal? Uh I don't know. I'm gonna have to revisit this. This is this is again, like it's so funny. Like you sometimes it necessitates this Zapruder-like uh you know, commitment to examining every frame.

Steve 1:27:31

If you do crack the case, can we can we get a uh a Barry dispatch to I'll present like I'll come up, I'll dress like Kevin Costner.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:40

I got my Southern draw.

Steve 1:27:41

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:43

I'll get Newman from Seinfeld to stand in. Yeah, we'll do the whole time. Perfect.

Steve 1:27:50

Um, and then we get this very sweet ending where they're like yelling that they're like like they're mad at each other and neither of them can keep it together. Really brought a smile on my face.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:58

See, that's why every ep every episode. So it ends with heartwarming uh stupidity.

Steve 1:28:05

I love these boys so much. I like I I know we say this all the time, but I was like, I want them to succeed so bad, but not at playing the Rivoli. I just want them to find happiness. They're doing it in their own way. Speaking of, I have uh one quick question. I want to put you on the spot. You have been known, Barry, to call uh, I believe uh the Rivoli a uh a venue of middling repute. So ha have you been there and have you had the Wookie Balls?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:31

I've been there. I've been I've been, you know, I again grew up in Toronto, so I've been there many times to have a drink or play some pool or watch people play pool live a drink. Um but no, I I have not had the Wookie Balls, nor am I overly familiar with its menu. I usually just eat whatever was placed in front of me.

Steve 1:28:54

We have had listeners calling in to recommend the food at the Rivley.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:57

Yeah, I don't know. You those listeners need to get out more. Um even within that like two square, two two kilometer block of Queen Street West, there are far better dining options. Uh but uh yeah, I mean, you know, like uh, you know, it's just the the thing about the Rivoli is, you know, back in the day, you know, it would host like some comedy grades, you know, kids in the hall, obviously, I don't think uh history with the movie. Um but today, like nobody really goes there um as a destination. I mean, if you really want to see great live music, you go two doors down to the whole shoe tavern, uh, which is where the like the place where like Neil Young will come to do a surprise set or something like that. Um the Rivoli is strictly like, you know, it's like a step up from open mic kind of thing.

Steve 1:29:49

So what you're saying is we can book a live show there.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:52

I mean, you could book a you could book a re podcast recording at the Rivoli without any problem. Although, you know, I haven't really been there since this whole thing kind of blew up. Maybe it's like become more of a thing. I mean, I know when the film uh their Canadian distributor Elevation Pictures, uh, which also you know co-produced the movie, um, they did the merch pop-up in Toronto. That was at the Ripple.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:17

Um, and you know, the Rivoli was definitely a destination that week, I think.

Steve 1:30:22

They probably get like one or two weirdos a week.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:24

Oh, I'm sure they get probably more than that. Yeah.

Michelle 1:30:28

Yeah. A growing pilgrimage site for Nirvana the Band fans.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:32

I'm like, uh, you know, I've early days, but I got my business plan for the Toronto Nirvana tour experience, a la like Kramer uh or something like that. Incredible. Yeah, yeah.

Steve 1:30:43

We'll go on it. All right, good. You got your first customers.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:47

Yeah, we're ready. Taking that to the bank tomorrow.

Steve 1:30:52

Just make a bunch of lies like the Kramer guy did. Yeah, yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:56

You know, speaking.

Steve 1:30:57

Yeah, how you do it. Um, do we all have any fine anybody have any final thoughts on the big time? This is a great one.

Michelle 1:31:04

I really loved it, and so nice to have this like insider information.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:10

Oh wow, happy, happy to provide it.

Steve 1:31:13

Barry, thank you so much for coming on the show. We really appreciate you hanging out with us today.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:17

Oh, my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Um the big time was a great time for all.

Michelle 1:31:24

Um, Barry, do you have anything that you would like to plug?

SPEAKER_00 1:31:28

Uh I'd love to give another plug to my book, which uh has nothing to do with nirvana, but it's just about another couple of dreamers with a plan to drive fast and furious. Uh yeah. Welcome to the family, uh, the explosive story behind Past and Furious. The blockbusters that supercharged the world is available anywhere you buy your books or ebooks or audiobooks. And if you've enjoyed listening to me blather on for the past uh hour and change, you'll be delighted to know that I am the narrator of the audiobook as well.

Steve 1:32:00

Ooh, I I have listened to the audiobook and it is a delightful read.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:05

Oh, well, thank you. Thank you. So that is available everywhere. And if you want to follow my stuff, uh I am at the Globe and Mail, which is Canada's largest daily national newspaper based in Toronto. Just search my name and you'll find all of my tracks. Uh Insta, Blue Sky, Lutterboxed. Uh, I'm there. Follow me. And for for all breaking Nirvana news.

Steve 1:32:28

Yes, please give Barry a follow. Um, well, everybody, uh you can join us on this if you'd like. We always end the show the same way, which is uh nothing like a good feeling.

Michelle 1:32:37

Nothing like a good feeling. Ooh, to get there.

Steve 1:32:41

Thanks for doing it. Yeah. Impressive. See you next time, folks. Thank you for listening to Nirvana the band The Show the Podcast. We'd love to hear from you. You can email us or send a voice memo to NirvanaThepod at gmail.com. And we're also on Blue Sky and Instagram at NirvanaThePod. Our website is Nirvanathepod.com. Our show is edited by Kit with additional help by John. Special thanks to Anne Meadows for our logo. Oh, and Matt and Jay, if you're listening, we'd love to have you on the show.