SPEAKER_00 0:03

I'm out Sir Andy here from the Filtside broadcasting from a dynasty schedule in Canada, and you are listening to Nirvana the Band, the Show the Podcast, a podcast all about Nirvana the Band, the show with Kit, Michelle, and Steve.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

We are Nirvana the Band.

Michelle 0:26

Hello and welcome to Nirvana the Band, the show, the podcast, the podcast all about watching and talking about Nirvana the Band. I'm Michelle. I'm joined by my two lovely co-hosts, one of whom is humming not O Canada, which is what you're usually humming.

Steve 0:42

I'm having a genderless burger experience over here. Jesus fucking Christ. Get with the picture.

Michelle 0:46

Um who are you? Can you introduce yourself?

Steve 0:49

I'm Kit.

Michelle 0:50

And I'm Steve. Oh my god. There's been a switcheroo.

Steve 0:53

I've had two guns of iced tea and hit my asthma inhaler. I'm ready to fucking go. Ready to party.

Michelle 1:00

Um, how are we doing, friends? Fine.

Steve 1:03

I saw live action Moana and didn't hang myself.

Michelle 1:06

That's great. I'm glad that you lived to tell the tale.

Steve 1:10

What I need to do a side uh spin-off episode where in which I talk about the live action Moana for four hours because it's I haven't stopped talking about it. Do you want that to be a solo one? No, you guys will come and I'll just talk at you about live action Moana for 90 minutes.

Kit 1:26

I do feel like ever since we've introduced the how we doin' Joey section to the intro, you have always come up with I just saw the latest animated film and I have thought or That's what happens when you are a parent.

Steve 1:39

You're dragged to every animated film.

Kit 1:41

Okay, okay. Was it really that bad?

Steve 1:43

So in the original Moana, the there's a scene where uh Maui's tattoo sasses him and he goes, I'm gonna make you go in my armpit. And because they wanted to age it up for the kids who were like five when the first one came out and now are 15, he goes, because he traps Moana in a cave, and then Maui goes, I have another cave I can stick you in, and then the camera pans down to his butt.

Kit 2:05

You know, that's some really beautiful visual storytelling. You know, you don't really rock or butt crack. You don't really see that anymore in film. And you know, shout out Disney for doing that brave choice.

Michelle 2:15

Is it the first goatse in a Disney movie? Yeah, it's really interesting that you're full hole. I think that's very brave. Um should we uh check in on on our plans? Uh do you have the whiteboard handy?

Steve 2:30

So uh top of the list, we got Matt and Jay.

Kit 2:33

Have we heard from them yet? No, I don't believe so. Although I keep ordering uh food and sending it to Canada in hopes that they will respond. Uh I've yet to find their perfect order. I really did think it would be Phileo Fish. Sadly, no.

Michelle 2:47

Oh, that's my perfect order. You got us mixed up. I know. It happens all the time. Uh have we heard from any of our other dream guests? Jared? Um I haven't.

Steve 2:57

Luca? Maybe.

Michelle 2:58

Not yet. Oh. Jay's dad? No, sadly. And I feel like I feel like a restraining order is coming for me.

Steve 3:06

And uh lastly, Werner Herzog and the Canada arm of the International Space Station.

Michelle 3:12

I think they're hanging out together, which is why they haven't responded to my emails. That's fair.

Steve 3:17

The arm reaches out across the galaxy to bring a man together.

Michelle 3:21

That's a really good Werner Herzog impression.

Steve 3:24

I try.

Michelle 3:25

Uh disclaimer that we are recording this one in advance. Um, so if we've added anyone to the list recently uh that you're really wondering if we've managed to get a hold of and they're not mentioned, uh who knows what's happened in the intervening weeks. Maybe we have heard from Matt and Jay in the time between when we're recording and when this will actually go up.

Steve 3:44

Maybe the Canada arm swings by.

Michelle 3:47

That would be really nice. Cool. Well, I think there's there's someone there's someone else. Steve, I think if you check the whiteboard again, you might find there's something scribbled at the bottom.

Steve 3:58

Oh, it says here people who are also sick freaks doing fan content related to Nirvana the band, the show, except this one's visual and not audio.

Michelle 4:07

Yeah, I snuck into your house and and I wrote that on the whiteboard last night. Oh, that was you. I thought it was a little mouse. That was me. Um, and uh what do you know? I think we might have two of those little freaks here right now. I'm really sorry for um calling you little freak, uh, person that I know and person that I just met. Uh welcome to Allegra Rosenberg and Sean Swenson.

SPEAKER_06 4:33

Hi!

Michelle 4:34

Thank you so much for having us. Hello. Thank you so much for coming on. Um, Allegra and Sean are the creators of The Fans, the Show, which is a wonderful web series of their own. Um, they have similar goals to us. They have, I think, an even bigger whiteboard than we do, which is something I'm incredibly jealous of and will strive to meet you in whiteboard land. Um, thank you guys so much for coming on. This is so fun.

SPEAKER_06 5:02

So much fun. I was so excited to get this invite. Um, obviously, one of the best things about fandom is that it's a community, and by being a fan, you get to meet other fans who care just as much about the same amazing thing as you do, and then even collab with them, which is what it's all about.

Michelle 5:19

That's so nice. Um, I think we wanted to start off. So we have an episode of the show to discuss today. We are um getting into Vice Land season two, but before we talk about that, um, I just wanted to talk to you guys a little bit and hear um, you know, first and foremost about your relationship with Nirvana, the band, the show. How did you find the boys? Is this like a longtime thing? Are you also new to it the way I am? Um, how'd you get into it?

SPEAKER_06 5:47

I think we're both part of the the new gen that came into it with the movie.

Michelle 5:52

Nice.

SPEAKER_06 5:53

I've definitely heard of it. I think at one point, some at some point last year, maybe like right when the movie was like starting to tour or something like that, our friend Nell mentioned to be in social media. It was like, oh, like you'd like this. And I was like, oh, okay, whatever. I I'm busy with my Antarctica stuff. Um, and then yeah, when I finally uh came back from my travels earlier this year, um, I had another friend say, Oh, yeah, I really think you would like this. I said, Okay, okay, fine, fine, fine. Um, and I was at that point ready for something new to take over my life, and I I had an inkling that that this might be it. You know, sometimes you have these like premonitions. Um, sometimes you have these sort of you know this foreknowledge uh that you're about to walk off a cliff like in Looney Tunes, and and this was that. Um, so I watched it all, went to see the movie, the rest was history. Totally.

Michelle 6:41

You watched everything before you saw the movie?

SPEAKER_06 6:43

Yes, I had a complicated travel situation going on. I was in Antarctica on a sh on a ship for four weeks when the movie came out. So I was on this boat for all of February, and that was when my friend was like, I've just seen this movie. I think you're gonna really like it. But then when I came home, I couldn't see the movie right away because I actually wasn't home. I was in Los Angeles about to go tape an episode of Jeopardy. So the whole week that I had in between coming from home from New Zealand and taping Jeopardy, I was studying, and in between study sessions, I would watch episodes of the Vice Land show. And then I taped Jeopardy, came home, watched all the web series in one day, and then went to see the movie in the next day. Oh wow.

Michelle 7:20

What a whirlwind. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_06 7:22

Okay, Sean, your turn. Sorry, I was just rambling.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

No, no. Um I was definitely like peripherally aware of the show. Um I was living in New York when like the Vice Land series was out and there were like ads for it on the subway, and it really seemed like something that I would have liked, but it was just sort of a ships in the night thing. It didn't arrive at the right time. Um and then I think on March 5th of this year, I went with my friend to see it and kind of we both played it cool as we walked out of the theater. I feel like I said something very like pseudo-intellectual that, like, it's so interesting how this is about like friendship and being a creative professional. And then I we got back to my apartment and we looked at each other and we were like, holy fuck. That was the most romantic, intense. It still has like stirred all these crazy feelings, and I don't know what to do. And I was like walking around in this this cloud, this like ineffable cloud of of of feeling. And uh, I think Allegra saw it, yeah, maybe about a couple weeks later.

SPEAKER_06 8:15

I saw it on the 22nd of March.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Wow, that's crazy. And we didn't really know each other. I mean, we did, we had friends in common, but um we came together over this.

Kit 8:25

Yes, and I Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, I assume that you guys had been collaborators for a while.

SPEAKER_06 8:30

No, no, I I had been to a bunch of Sean's amazing plays um before, just uh, you know, like once a year or something like that. And yeah, we have a bunch of mutual friends, and it was one of those mutual friends that like when I walked out of that movie and started like posting online, uh, our friend was like, Okay, well, you need to go sit down with Sean. And that was actually so two days, two days after I saw the movie, I saw the movie on a Sunday, and then on a Tuesday, Sean and I made plans to grab coffee and we went to Cafe Regio, and then we ended up hanging out for like six hours. And by the end of that, we had the outline for episode one of our show, and we knew we were gonna do it.

Michelle 9:06

That's incredible. That's so cool. I was gonna ask, like, what what was the process like between when you like decided to start making a web series of your own?

SPEAKER_06 9:17

Um, I think that we're both creative people. We both have a lot of experience, like sort of in creative industries and and collaborating. I come from more of the music and comedy side of things, uh, and and Sean is in sort of you know, the drama side of things. And I also have a like I'm a fandom expert. That's sort of what I do for my day-to-day. I consult for different companies on, you know, what fandom is, how to um get on its good side, you know, how it functions sort of in a in a business sense and in the entertainment industry. And I'm I'm writing a book on fandom that's gonna be out next year. Um, and so I do a lot of like fan events. Um, and in any fandom that I'm in, I'm usually the one that's like organizing the events and the gift exchanges and the meetups, and like I'm just a I just love organizing stuff and putting stuff together. So Nirvana the band, I mean, like Matt talks about how you watch an episode and then you're you're you would be able to make your own episode, right? Like the the secret to how it is constructed, there's no secret. It's it's embedded in it. So that fact, it's like, well, okay, so you've you're now obsessed with this thing. What are you gonna do in response to it? And the answer with this in this case, more than any other case that I've seen is, oh, make your own version of it. Um, so when I was thinking about like, oh my God, I have all this fandom creative energy welling up inside of me, what am I gonna do with it? And then I hung out with Sean, who was feeling the same way. And I think, yeah, we're like, well, well, we obviously have to make our own thing. And I don't think we realized at that point that there actually is this sort of grand tradition of making your own sort of nirvana alike that people have been doing, you know, since probably pre-Vice Land, but there definitely was were a lot of them uh around then. You know, whether it's like a remake or a remix or a takeoff on it, there are a lot of them out there. I don't really even think that we had a sense of that because we were so new to it. Sean, I don't know if you if you have perspective on that.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Um, no, other than just, well, we had something important to say. I didn't know quite what it was when we started, but I think that that's what's been guiding us through all of it. So that we have a very specific perspective on all of these things.

SPEAKER_06 11:20

Yeah, yeah. Which is which is a deeply meta perspective and in in the way in which Nervada the band, obviously they're they're playing versions of themselves that care about things that they care about, but in a very exaggerated and sort of sometimes like reflected way. I was like, well, we will obviously just do that. And because we're so different than Matt and Jay, what we have to say will be really unique and will be really different than than what the show is dealing with and will be something that's entirely our own, even if we're using the the structures of the original to sort of play that with.

Michelle 11:53

Yeah. So I feel like the the overlap in this fandom is like basically a circle. I think like if you're into one like nirvana, the band adjacent thing, you're probably into most of them. Um but for anyone who's listening to this who hasn't seen your show yet, um, what is that perspective? Like what is the thing that you're bringing to it?

SPEAKER_06 12:14

Yes. Uh the perspective is um Matt Johnson for a dollar, name a woman. Um the perspective is a fan ish slash fangirl, fan they perspective. It's about what it's like to love something so much that it drives you essentially to the brink. The brink of what? I mean, of the brink of a lot of different things. But also it's a force for powerful good in your life. Um, and it's all about walking that fine line of um, I guess, enthusiasm and you know, sort of delusion. Um, and and sometimes crossing that line. Um, yeah, that's what it's about.

Michelle 12:54

Yeah. Uh in our case, it has also drawn us to talking about the Disney Channel original movie, Brink, uh, quite a lot.

SPEAKER_06 13:03

Um, but yeah, that's that's what I came to it with. I mean, for me, it's a sort of companion piece to the book that I'm working on because I've been researching for the last three years. Fandom has been around for centuries, and the emotions that people feel about the things that they love is kind of unchanging. And it's really just the societal structures and technology and the culture industry that changes around those emotions. Obviously, the emotions are culturally sort of inflected. Um, but the the through line is what really interests me and the universality of a certain kind of fan experience. So that's what I'm trying to explore. Sean, I don't know, what are you trying to explore?

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Yeah, I think that this uh the questions that we kind of raise in this show and things that we grapple with are part of themes in all of my plays and like scripts and things that I write about like online culture and desire and how often like most desire can't be satisfied, and uh we spend our entire lives trying to fill some like void that we can't. Um also I think the fans of the show is a literal metaphor for just like making dramatic work and how often you like project so much onto your performers and see them as like a vessel for like your own feelings when in fact they're their own people. So yeah. Especially episode two, which is gonna drop soon, is very much about like theater.

SPEAKER_06 14:25

Uh and then um episode three, it it it kind of becomes more of an in-joke about like New York theater the more the show goes on. Um because yeah, I think from the start we were like, okay, we're gonna literally start with a literal remake of the literal first scene of the web series, and then it's gonna sort of get into its own thing. And it's so funny that we posted that clip on Instagram, that that opening where they're like remaking that with like a fake piano like playing. And that's what Jay commented on. And he's not commenting on uh any but of the performers in that scene or what we're doing in a larger sense, but he's like, Who's doing the piano?

SPEAKER_01 15:05

I was gonna ask you about playing the piano. I think about it all the time.

SPEAKER_06 15:11

First of all, you've ruined our you have ruined the plot of our show by commenting on our Instagram because it's now we can't play the Kfabe anymore. Secondly, that you can do whatever you want. That's true. I'm not, I'm not actually mad about it. I it was a thrill. It was a joy and a thrill. Um secondly, yeah, that's my other that's my friend Matthew Jordan, the Toronto tour guide, who's also an incredible piano player, who's who's doing that. Um who's also uh yeah, a great uh one of the one of the great Canadians um these days. And yeah, he did that piano for us. So he was the one who got to be really excited about that uh that comment. And yeah, it was really funny.

Michelle 15:48

Thanks, Jay. Do you feel so I feel like you are both writers in various formats? Does this feel different than anything else you've ever written? Like plays and books and stories and extreme plays. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Yeah.

Michelle 16:02

Yeah. How so?

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Well, it all kind of comes together on the fly. I mean, the way that Allegra and I do it is we just kind of write out not literal sticky notes, but we write out our beats of like what we think is going to happen in the episode. I go home and like put it into script form. And then we end up doing it sort of as written and then throwing a lot of it out and just improvising, and often the best stuff is in there. When I write plays, it takes me like two years, and I'm like really meticulous over every single word. So this has been a real exercise in like uh letting go of control, which can be scary, but it's also very liberating in a way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 16:39

Yeah. I really, as much as I fancy myself a screenwriter, this is the first time that I've ever worked on something that has made it to the performance stage, let alone the filming and button posting stage. Um, my work has mainly been in uh my published work has mainly been in the r the areas of nonfiction and fanfiction, right? So this is the first time that I have a narrative that I'm actually able to put out there. And that has just been incredibly uh thrilling and inspiring. And I I would like I would not have done that without Nirvana the Band. Like that's so cool. I'm a very obviously a fandom-powered person, and there have been fandoms and and works that have unlocked me in different ways. Um, obviously, all my fandoms have like been amazing in that way, but like I would say that this is one of the most significant ones already because of what it has allowed me to do in the realm of my own creative practice. And it has like I I've never acted in front of a camera before, I've never directed before. And now, you know what, like four or five months after watching this movie, I've done all of that. That's crazy.

Michelle 17:39

Yeah, that's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

So I was gonna say, we didn't know at first that it was gonna be us. We were talking about like finding actors to play.

SPEAKER_06 17:46

Yeah, we took us interesting approximately two hours to say like we think we have to be, it has to be us.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

It has to be.

SPEAKER_06 17:54

Yeah. And then um Sean right away knew that their friend Ethan should be our Jay, and then I took, I think, maybe a day to figure out that my friend Miles should be Matt, and they were both very easy to convince.

Michelle 18:07

I was gonna ask how you found the your fake Jay and fake Matt and got them to like I was wondering if there were auditions, if you genuinely did find them at a look-alike contest.

SPEAKER_06 18:18

Like I I love that people, you're like the third or fourth person to ask us that, and I absolutely am obsessed with that. That that's uh what people are thinking. No, um, they didn't know each other. That day, the look-alike contest was the first day that they met. So we we didn't do a chemistry read or anything, but yeah, Miles is a friend of mine from the sort of fringe clown world. I'm actually producing his show at the Edinburgh Fringe this year. He says has an amazing clown character named Mr. Cardboard. Um, and then yeah, Ethan was in a bunch of Sean's plays.

Michelle 18:45

A lot of separate follow-up questions. And we can get it. Clowns and Mr.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Cardboard and I just want to say they did win third place at the look-alike contest. But it was rigged because I was the judge. Well, yeah. Yeah. So the people, it was like a clap for who you think it was it was judged by claps. They received claps.

SPEAKER_06 19:04

Um, and yeah, and what is also true is that Miles was coming into it as a fan of Nirvana the Band, and Ethan did not know what the heck it was. So that dynamic is is is true to life as well.

Michelle 19:16

Oh, that's so interesting. I feel like your show feels distinct and and of its own thing, but it is capturing the spirit of like hard to tell what is true and like what is like you guys reacting versus like getting an actor, and like I think that's so cool. And um there'll be more of that. More of that is a good thing. It's really easy to capture. Yeah. Oh, I can't wait.

SPEAKER_06 19:40

One of our struggles has been that um, first of all, we couldn't do it without our amazing camera people. Like, that is one of the main reasons it's this is happening, is that I dragged my friend Kat, who's like our Jared, into it. When I say that she's our Jared, I mean that like she knows what the hell she's doing, but she comes from a much different, she's not a documentarian at all. She comes from uh music videos and and and and narrative cinema. Uh, and so getting her to try and do these like big long takes. At a certain point, I decided to stop pushing against the current and just let her do what she wanted to do, which meant that we do a lot more action and cut and retakes and stuff like that than uh the original Nirvana of the band. Like we definitely passed around like episodes for everybody to watch to sort of imbue their camera work with a little bit of that spirit, but like you can't just have a cinematographer and and say, okay, be Jared. Like that's just not possible. So one of the awesome things about like doing this over a couple of months is seeing our team sort of find their own voice within this larger, like sort of pastiche thing that we've got going on.

Michelle 20:43

Yeah. That's so cool. It's really interesting that like all of you together are have done things that are like this, but you're flexing sort of a different version of that creative muscle and and learning how to do it together. I mean, that's what we're doing with this podcast a little bit too. Um, and it's except for Steve, who has made many a podcast. Yeah. Um but that's super fun.

SPEAKER_06 21:05

It's so fun. I mean, we did that first, the first two episodes in like a four-day block back in April, and I was so nervous going into it that I couldn't sleep. I was like, what the hell am I doing? Like, what am I getting myself into? Like, this is gonna crash and burn. I think I was most worried that I wouldn't have fun, and then that would reveal something about myself, which would be that I would be like temperamentally unsuited to become a Matt Johnson-like figure. Um, and what happened was I emerged out the other side of that having had the most fun I've ever had in my life. I'm like, oh, this is actually worse. I fucked myself in a worse way. Now I love this.

Michelle 21:38

God damn it. Um you just called yourself a Matt Johnson figure. Do you two think of yourself like one of you is Matt, one of you is Jay? Or do you feel like you have two wolves inside of you?

SPEAKER_06 21:51

Is us arguing about who gets to wear the hat.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Yeah, that's true. Um For real though, I think we're individual people who are very different from either. Of those characters, but Allegra definitely has the type A Matt Johnson drive that like I wish I possessed. And isn't that sort of the gist of Nirvana the band? Is that both of them want to be each other in like different ways? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:13

Whereas Sean has this amazing artistic productivity that I have always been very jealous of. Like, oh my god, you actually make plays and put them on, which I've never done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

You like know how to get things done and like ask people for things. So it it's in a way it's kind of a dream partnership because I get to like live in like the soup, the emotional soup and like miasma of of of the scripts, and then you know, go to Sunset Park and we're like sitting in this room, Sean is on the couch, I'm up at the whiteboard, I'm pacing, I'm writing stuff down, and I'm like, okay, and then this happens, and then this happens, and they're writing it down.

SPEAKER_06 22:42

I'm like, and then okay, and then they go home and then they come back with this amazing script. It's awesome. I don't have to do anything. So I'm just gonna go. I mean, it's just like you did something.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

I'm so glad you see it that way.

Michelle 22:54

I mean, that feels like the ideal is that like both of you feel like you're getting away with the other person doing the hard part. Yeah. I'm so grateful to have people working on this with me who are not deeply terrified of their email. Um, that's a really nice feature. Uh it's so nice.

SPEAKER_06 23:12

Yeah. Um, but no, it's a total blast. And like literally, like, we have ideas for projects that we want to do together after this. There's only gonna be five episodes, by the way. Um, and we're just finishing shooting the fifth one tomorrow. Um but uh like A, we'd love to make a season two with the same team about with a slightly different non-Nirvana the Band related plot, um, or make something else. Like what's our, you know, we keep going like what's our dirty is gonna be? Like, what's our next thing that we're gonna do? Like, I don't know. But it's such a great group of people. Like, I would just be so psyched to keep working with everybody after this.

Kit 23:47

With you finishing up episode five or starting to shoot it, how are you feeling about that? That it's sort of coming to an end in a way.

SPEAKER_06 23:53

Well, there's so much editing to do. I am not thinking of this as an end in any meaningful way. Oh my god, is it not over? There's gonna there's editing, and then there will probably be reshoots when I get back from Europe um in September. Ah, okay, gotcha. But we are ostensibly shooting the last stuff, uh the second half of we shot the first half of episode five in Toronto the other week.

Michelle 24:13

I was gonna ask, you guys were in Toronto recently, and was that show related or was that just a pilgrimage to Holy Land.

SPEAKER_06 24:21

I was like, guys, let's get these plans out the group chat. We're gonna go, we're gonna have fun, we're gonna there was so I we drag I dragged a non-Nirvana the band friend with me, and her workplace uh had I I'd met people from her workplace and I did something with them. So like there was a work element where like I was invited to that office to you know give like a lunch and learn about my work and stuff like that. So there was that as the kind of like it's a business trip, but also we were just there to hang out and have a vacation, but also we were there to shoot stuff from for the show and do the Luca interview. So combination of things, but it was such a such a such a fun trip.

Michelle 24:56

I saw you went to the ribboli. You went to the house. Did you hit any other like important sites? Did you go to the Scarborough Bluffs?

SPEAKER_06 25:05

We didn't. We were mainly like sh hanging out in Trinity Bellwoods, like uh with our cameras. Uh we yeah, we did this walking tour. So my friend Matthew Jordan, professional Toronto tour guide, piano player extraordinaire. I basically made him the do this thing where he used his like, he does like a made these amazing three-hour long tours of Toronto, like nature and like infrastructure. And I basically forced it to not forced, he was totally down. He's a big fan of Nirvana the Band as well. But we I was like, okay, so you're gonna do this tour on Canada Day. It's gonna be a two-hour-long tour in the morning. We're gonna film it and and and I'm gonna promote it through the Fans of the Show account so everybody who signs up will be down to clown with us, and we're gonna make people do funny scenes with us as part of this episode. And so that's what we did. We were doing this tour getting guided from site to site, and we were shooting little bits along the way, um, culminating in like a very funny scene outside the Rivoli for episode five that everybody in the crowd got involved in, and which you'll see, which we hopefully turned out well. That's so cool. That's awesome.

Michelle 26:06

I did have a question also, you know, you've talked about you're writing a book and you do all this fandom stuff. Like, I'm curious your sort of general thoughts, reactions to the greater Nirvana the Band fandom and like how it compares to other places, how it compares other fandoms that you've been in or that you have written about or studied if it's the like ancient historical ones.

SPEAKER_06 26:29

It's it's super interesting. I think when you this is I think Nirvana the Band would fall under the category of something with a genuine cult following, which I tend to think means like no matter how long it's been since the last installment, there will be new people picking it up and taking it into their heart and and it changing their lives. Like this is not something that's gonna fizzle out and people are gonna forget about because it always will have a relevance and an importance to the people who need it most. So I think that is a definition of something with a true cult following, but it is also semi-ongoing. Um, so there's this aspect of like when new installments do come out, they do attract new people. And one of the most common things with a long-running um something, a long-running franchise with a cult following is that there will be these clashes in between generations of fans. Um, and there will be almost territoriality that you get in between people who've been like, well, I've been here since blah blah blah days, and like these new fans, they don't know how to act. And like I am seeing a bit of that on social media. There's also the gender factor, which is really big. I would say that um, you know, Nirvana the band, I think even Matt and Jay have talked about it's something where like if a girl says they like it, it's because their boyfriend showed it to them. Yeah. That is like the reputation that the show has had, is it's a boyfriend show. And this new crop of fans that has come in with the movie is a more I don't know if traditional is the right word, but people have been seen to be quite misogynistic um about this new fandom and and being like, oh, like these, you know, like these uh these girls or like whatever, like, you know, or like you know, when when a when a bunch of new young people, queer people, women enter a fandom, it is perceived as being a taint on the canon itself, right? And that was happening with with uh Wagner, with Ibsen in the 19th century. As soon as women are interested in something, all the men go, oh, we like like what do you got? You're you're ruining it, you're ruining it for everybody. This is like one of the things that pops up again and again in fandom history, right? Um, and we're I'm definitely seeing hints of that. Like, I think every like two weeks, something pops up on Twitter, like, how did Nirvana the band get that kind of fandom? It's like, it's an interesting question. The answer is obviously that they just had a huge movie that everybody went to see, as well as the fact that the movie makes you go, oh my god. And then you go back and you watch everything retrospectively and you're like, oh, they've been like this the whole time. That's one of the interesting things to me, is that this kind of this kind of fandom, a traditional transformative media shipping slash what a Tumblr-esque fandom only began to coalesce post-movie, despite the fact that the character dynamic has been the same the entire time. Um, I think that's just fully a function of reach and the fact that like it the show up until the release of the movie was very much an if you know you know, like almost lost media kind of thing. And the people that were spreading around were like, you know, uh in that boyfriend category.

Michelle 29:18

We talked a couple weeks ago about how I haven't checked in on this. Maybe it's maybe it's time for an AO3 update, but at some point recently, Nirvana the Band was the fastest growing or one of the fastest growing topics on Archive of Art.

SPEAKER_06 29:32

I didn't know how is that quantified? Is there somebody that's tracking that? I did not know that that was a statistic that was being paid attention to.

Michelle 29:38

Yeah. We didn't. There was the one who found it, weirdly, the least into fanfiction person on this club.

SPEAKER_06 29:44

I would love for you to send that to me. I know that we've just hit 600 in the tag within the last few days, um, which is really exciting.

Steve 29:52

I didn't find it. It was one of my um uh sources that tends to drop stuff to me was like, hey, check this out.

SPEAKER_06 29:59

Okay, cool. I mean, and this is an interesting thing. It's like this is a show that has been going on for a long ass time, and there have always been people who loved it, but anecdotally, and I have I'm interested in this question, right? You know, how fan that the the what being a fan means changes within the same franchise based on who is coming in and what sort of fan practices they are circulating. The fact that the AO3 side of things like was almost, as far as I know, non-existent until the movie is very interesting to me.

Michelle 30:29

Um it was like there, I think there were less than 50.

SPEAKER_06 30:33

No, I think it's been less than 20 this year. Yeah, there was a very low number.

Michelle 30:37

Hundreds and hundreds in the time since the movie has come out.

SPEAKER_06 30:42

And I think that that there's the one of the reasons that that is being made possible is is the depth of archival and and the fact that there's so much lore. And also that you can watch the show, and obviously everything in the show and the movie itself is you're like, oh my god, you know, I'm so inspired by this. And then there's the extra/slash paracanonical lore and the way that the lines blur between how the show was made and what the show is, where it's like if you know that like you know, Jay dropped out of Berkeley or whatever, well, you're you're like, okay, well, maybe that applies to the character as well. There's all could because, like, look, they started it. They started those blurring those lines, right? So it's almost an invitation to the fandom to explore these character dynamics um and and to use all of the material at hand, not just what is in um the show and the movie.

Steve 31:30

I would also add in, as someone who's the like exact same age as them, I think there is also a a large group of queer folks who didn't want to accept or were able to accept their own queerness in 2008, myself included, um, that as they've grown and changed, reflecting back, are also being able to see those themes, myself included. And you know, I think there is also an element of like a shift in culture and the world in general, about how people who were like in their early 20s in 2008 maybe weren't able to grapple with. I think there's a lot of us that are Matt Johnson seeing the hangover out there. And I do think that that like fundamentally shifts the way people look at it because also almost everyone I have interacted with around the community, I'm not big into fandoms, but the you know, handful of people I talked to or have reached out to us, it's a large amount of queer folks.

SPEAKER_03 32:28

Yeah.

Steve 32:29

And and I I do think, you know, it is a mix of newer people finding it, but I do also think there is something about like a generation of queer folks who were struggling or deeply closeted figuring their shit out and you know, interpreting their media through that lens.

SPEAKER_06 32:45

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, the way in which there's a lot of crossover I see in Phantom Spaces between this show and Always Sunny, which has had a very large shipping culture going back, you know, almost the entire time that it's been on, and those themes have then been dealt with in the show itself. With Nirvana the Band, I think because of the way that the show, Viceland show, was kind of buried and then yeah, like became lost media, and it's been like very few people watched it, and then it's been hard to find since then. The cult aspect of that means that, like, okay, people a lot, I see a lot of people, myself included, going like, if I had known that this was a thing, like I would have been so into it at the time. I think it really was a function of reach. Um, and it's just so cool that the success of the movie is allowing people to go back and connect with the at the show as it has existed this entire time. There's a bit of a grief to that because you're like, oh, like if only I'd had this like back when I was if I had this show when I was like 21, I think that I would have started making movies a lot sooner. Um, but oh well, you have to do what you can when you can. So.

Michelle 33:50

Fandom feels like a great segue into the episode that we are here to discuss today, which is Vice Land season two, episode one, the burger. Matt and Jay decide that this time they're seeing their plan through. This time they're not giving up. This time they'll book a show at the Rivoli, and they'll do it by going to a Toronto Maple Leafs game and kissing on the Jumbotron, or by being really good at improv or by way of a magic hamburger that grants wishes. Um The opening credits to this one and the the theme that runs throughout this episode, the the format, is uh Wahlbergers, which um not too before we've even started discussing this episode, send us on a tangent, but um I knew that Wahlbergers was a restaurant before I watched this episode. I was not aware there was a reality show.

Steve 34:37

I did you also look up how many seasons? Because I had a note here.

Michelle 34:41

Did anyone who didn't look up Wahlbergers would you like to guess how many seasons of Wahlbergers? Like five there are. Great guess. Ten? Ding ding ding. 95 episodes. 95 seasons of Wahlbergers.

Steve 34:57

95 episodes of Jenny McCarthy shoving measles into ground beef.

Michelle 35:03

Ten seasons of a show that Alison Keene of the Hollywood Reporter described as only a true and abiding love for the Wahlbergers will keep sorry, for the Wahlbergs will keep viewers interested. It was nominated for an Emmy in 2014 and 2015. For one would not win. What? Reality show. Jesus. Sorry, I gotta lie about Mark Wahlberg. He could have stopped that. He could have stopped that plane. He could have turned things around. Jesus Christ. I forgot about that. I think about that constantly.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

There would have been a lot of blood in that first class cabin if he'd had his way.

Michelle 35:46

Yeah.

Steve 35:47

Bro, go make another fucking Apple movie. Shut the fuck up.

Michelle 35:50

Like another Apple mov like Apple TV?

Steve 35:53

Oh, he's churning out movies left and right for Apple TV. I think the family plan, the family plan part two. Y'all don't know about that about cell phones.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

No, it's about Mark Wahlberg is like, he's like a killer, he's like an assassin FBI secret agent or something, but he has a kid, so the it's the joke is that he's a dad.

Steve 36:11

And I believe it's poor Michelle Monohan trapped in this film with him.

unknown 36:16

Oh my god.

Michelle 36:17

Wow.

Kit 36:17

Incredible. Well, I know what I'm watching later. I'll test it. Every season of Wahlbergers.

Michelle 36:22

And then the family plan. And the family plan too.

Steve 36:26

I know I'm getting ahead of ours ourselves here, but like the scenes where they actually showed Wahlbergers. Well, I guess it's not getting ahead of it. It's at the beginning of the thing. I was like, how the fuck could anyone watch five minutes of this, let alone 10 years?

SPEAKER_06 36:38

I I like the the little characterization notes that we get throughout I think Web Series and Vice Land that Jay has this love for TV that Matt doesn't share that he's kind of ashamed of. Like Jay likes Lost. Jay likes Wahurgers. Jay's watching like cartoons when he's sick. Like I think that's very a cute little character difference.

Michelle 37:00

Yeah. I also love that um when Jay gets caught watching Wahurgers, he like turns it off and scrambles away. Like he's been caught watching pornography.

SPEAKER_06 37:11

Like he's been to he's been told not to rot his brain with reality TV and that he should, you know, watch some like great movies instead, probably by Matt many times. He's been lectured on that account.

Steve 37:24

Another way in which I am the Matt Johnson of this podcast. Michelle and Kit, no, I'm not a TV.

Michelle 37:31

Has seen 90% of all movies and 0% intelligence. Yes.

Steve 37:37

Yeah, we're here talking about TV. Go figure.

SPEAKER_06 37:39

But you're talking about TV. This is special. It's a special TV. Special. Not like other TV shows. Really not. Something like other Ts. Something different.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

It's something different, genuinely.

Steve 37:52

I like it's not like other TV shows is a way of Matt Johnson pitching himself on a date.

Michelle 37:58

It's really nice. Um I think this is such a funny like opening to season two that they're just like, why hasn't the Rivoli called us back?

SPEAKER_06 38:06

I know. I I also think one of my notes for this opening scene is so I've just been in the edit cave with episode two of our show. Um, and and it is really helpful to me to go back and watch specifically these scenes where they're at home, like and at the piano. The way that these conversations are cut together is fucking genius and like actually like a technological marvel. If you really pay attention, the the second you know what a prelap is? Um a prelap is when some something starts happening, you hear something before you see it, basically. So the way that these conversations are cut together, a lot of these scenes in the house are cut together from stuff shot on different days. I don't know if that's the case with with this scene at the start of the burger, but the way that Kurt, the editor, is like a fucking wizard, and you'll hear somebody start talking before you switch to the reverse shot of them talking, which makes you think that it's consecutive, that that's actually how it was said in the room, which is not true. So a lot of the reaction shots, it's like Jay will just be sort of looking and you'll hear Matt and then it'll go to Matt, but he actually that was not a response to like off of Jay at all. And you'll have lines that are like cut off halfway through for comic effect, which is very much like an artifact of editing as well. I'm just saying, like, go frame by frame through like this scene is a great example, this one that starts the episode, and you're like, oh my god, like Kurt is a genius because this is probably like Frankenstein together and like shifting the the sound a little bit this way and then having like the reaction come this way a bit. It makes it feel like it's all happening just like that in the room when I mean I'm sure this took them hours to shoot.

Michelle 39:47

That's so interesting. It's like I I've never done any sort of video editing. Um, and that is a fascinating perspective that I don't think I realized.

SPEAKER_06 39:58

Being in Premiere Pro, nudging things this way and that will really give you an insane appreciation for the magic that has worked in every single episode of this show. It's it's insane what they do.

Steve 40:10

That's wild. I have a question for the class. Yes. Totally unrelated, but this was my note. So, you know, Matt says, Oh, you know, here's our we're gonna do our plan, and Jay says, This, we've done too many plans, we're gonna do one plan and we're gonna stick with it. And Matt says, uh, all season, we're doing one plan.

Kit 40:28

Yeah.

Steve 40:29

Now we talked, we're recording is out of order. We just recorded the bean um last week, I think. So we were recently talking about uh the scene in the second episode where Matt goes, uh, like basically and explains the plot. He goes, plot twist, Jay went over there. So my question for the group is what do you think they are filming this for? Because in Universe, they are filming. I have a theory, I would like to hear everyone else's.

SPEAKER_06 40:58

So I had this in my notes as well, because this is uh something that I was just talking about on Discord, um, which is like, yeah, what to what degree are they aware that obviously they're they're aware that they're being filmed, are they aware that they're in a show? And I think this is one indication that they are aware that they're in a show. The other one comes later in season two, which I don't want to spoil, but I will say it's at the end of the episode with Ned, the very end of the episode with Ned, where Matt is like references the credits basically. But my theory, and oh yeah, and then so, but then the big one is like they're talking, they're not only are they aware that they're in a show, they're aware that this is the start of a new season, right? Um, and that like that's they're they you won an arc, which is funny because this season has a very well-plotted out arc where these all these hints to like what Jay's eventually going to do that are sprinkled throughout the um season. Um, my personal theory is that it's a show that uh Jared is making that he is uploading to a secret server for an audience of like the like the kind of people who like post on like Reddit, like Lol Cow and Snark forums. And so there's a group of like 40 select Torontoans who are huge fans of this like gorilla documentary and who's been tracking these guys for like 20 years and they tune in for every episode, but it's like not public enough that it would have ramifications on Matt and Jay's life in Toronto, or maybe there are people that aren't in Toronto and they're elsewhere in the world and they're watching this, and actually people in Toronto are not allowed to watch it. But it's like Jared's secret like project that he's that he's he's sort of puppeteering.

Steve 42:34

I also landed and and what put me on this point was the scene in the bean where Jared sneaks down and films them like talking through the banister. See, I look at it as like he puts it out on like movie or something. Like it's like a series of documentary shorts on not even movie, like a more obscure streaming service.

SPEAKER_06 42:53

Yeah.

Steve 42:54

Uh Quibi. Quivby, yeah. It was a quibby.

SPEAKER_06 42:57

That's quibby.

Steve 42:58

Rest in peace. Yeah. CISO, that's what he put it on.

SPEAKER_06 43:01

But in uh, I think I think it was the end of was it end of B Day? Whatever whatever when when Matt says you know something like, oh, full access, that's what you like, and he becomes nervous around the cameras um because of what he's done. And so there's this implication that the cameramen in universe like have are more in control than out of universe.

Steve 43:22

Has anybody probably not? Has anyone seen the recent Corey Feldman documentary? I think it's called Corey Feldman versus the Worlds.

Kit 43:29

No.

Steve 43:30

I'm bringing this up because it's like IRL Nirvana the band almost, because Cory Feldman, I don't know if you know, has a music career and a series of women called the Angels that follow him around in lingerie and all of this stuff. And he a documentarian followed him around, but got full access and basically made a whole expose about how Corey Feldman's an abusive manipulator. And he is hamming it up to the camera, being like, Look at this, we're gonna go do this. But because he gave full access, like, we see the most horrifying shit imaginable. And it's a pretty good movie. But like I walked out of that being like, oh, this is like what would happen if this was real.

SPEAKER_06 44:07

Yeah, in universe. Yeah.

Steve 44:09

Like a creative lunatic not realizing how bad he looks while somebody films him and also just repeatedly giving them more ammunition.

SPEAKER_06 44:17

Yeah, yeah. I mean, um, absolutely. I love all of the like what like the cameramen theories. Um, I like when it comes up that, like, oh, like, does Matt pay them through his like seemingly unlimited source of funds? Or are they like, do they have sort of, is it, is it all Jared's money that they're using? Like, is he really the one in charge? It's I I never get tired of it. It's so fun to think about. I have a whole um thing in my head about like you would imagine that after 20 years of this in the universe they'd become like local celebrities, right? And there'd be like a subreddit devoted to spotting them around town. And and had they'd have like a Star Trek style, like do not interfere policy because they're like, they're like, we can't like no one like mess up what they're doing because this sort of like durational performance art is kind of a masterpiece, and people are comparing them to like Gilbert and George and stuff like that. They're like neighborhood characters essentially. Yeah, they originally would know who they were.

Michelle 45:13

It's equivalent to a sleepwalker, and like you're not supposed to wake them up.

SPEAKER_06 45:16

Yes, yeah, totally, totally. But people would be like, oh, and there'd be like like like art world news about them, and like it's like it's like we have a line about Henry Darger in our second episode. So like it's like it's outsider art, yeah.

Michelle 45:29

Incredible. Do you feel like the line that's in the movie where Matt turns to the camera and is like, if you're seeing this in a theater, it's a fucking miracle. Um is is part of the.

SPEAKER_06 45:40

Have you guys watched the Cineplex interview? The one that they did, it's a promotional interview for the movie, but they did it on set in costume and in character, and they're really fucking with this interviewer who like does not know what's going on. No, I don't think it's a good idea. And if the money were there, they reference themselves, they they call themselves an old couple and I have seen this.

Kit 45:58

Because they're talking about the sit and play thing, like nearby.

SPEAKER_06 46:02

We can't go paint on the f at a first date place because we'd bring all our baggage with us, and then Jay's like, we don't have to talk about it. And Matt's like, you brought it up. And the interviewer like is, I'm sure, just like, who are these people? And then Jay starts playing the broke back mountain theme on the piano. Oh my god. Anyway, in that interview, they talk about they they've made a movie. So there there is, I think you can take that as I take that as again, like a sort of like paracanonical thing, which is that they have an awareness in universe that they are making something that people will see. Maybe that has changed. Maybe they were not, maybe in Vice Land days, like it, like in universe wasn't getting shown to people, but now they're like, okay, the movie is out there. And this is my, this is my crazy, I can imagine anything. One of the things we talked about with Luca briefly in our interview is that it's gonna be more difficult to film the way they filmed in out in Toronto because m so many more people know them now. And so my pitch, my pitch, you can steal the please, please steal this, Matt Johnson. I want you to do it, is that something to do with the events of the movie have resulted in them becoming well known around town. And so that way they can get away with being recognized on camera and in character. And it's also a a way to up the ante and to change the stakes a little bit after the movie because suddenly people know who they are.

Michelle 47:23

A change in the timeline.

SPEAKER_06 47:24

Yes, or or whatever it is. Um and then that that would that would uh make sense with them talking in that interview about oh, like this is why we made this movie because we just needed a bigger plan.

Steve 47:36

Hear me out. They change their outfits and Clark can Superman themselves without the hat, drip pants.

SPEAKER_06 47:44

They can't do that. That would really break the timeline. It's like in the um the Joel Haver video where they're in uh regular Matt and J clothes, but they have to comment on it in the video because they know that it doesn't make sense.

Michelle 47:58

It's so funny. Um the plan in this episode. Fake fans, real results. We kiss. Yeah. What a treat. I hope that they do spend the entire season working on this one plan and that they kiss at the end of the season. That's I'm just gonna put my flag in the ground and the flag says they kiss. We will follow up at the season finale. Um, I'm gonna be rooting for it in every single episode of season two.

Kit 48:25

Honestly, I am too. And I've seen it. Oh my gosh. Oh, you know that they kiss. Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, wait, what?

Steve 48:32

Yeah, man, they kiss. I think Jay kisses Matt on the head at night when he's asleep. Jay kisses Matt? No. Matt kisses Jay on the head. No, no, see, it's a different kind of kiss. Matt is a romantic one. I think Jay's like, find some sleep, little buddy. That's my my stance on it.

SPEAKER_06 48:48

I I if if there was ever a time in which Matt was asleep and Jay wasn't, that would probably happen, but I don't think that's ever happened because I think Matt gets about need he's one of those like super sleepers that only needs about four or five hours of sleep a night. It's like genetic. And Jay is asleep like nine, ten hours.

Michelle 49:03

Yeah, I was gonna say, I feel like even more so in the Vice Land. He is always so sleepy and that's when Matt works like on a pillow like a little angel.

SPEAKER_06 49:12

Matt. That's when Matt works out. I mean, he's got five more hours in his day than Jay does. So he he just that's he goes in the basement and he he does his splits and that's super beefy.

Michelle 49:20

Incredible. I'm just giving you all my theories. I love this. I love this so much. Yeah. Do you have theories on Jay's reaction to the kissing plan? Of course I do. I want to hear them.

SPEAKER_06 49:38

Well, we know from the web series that uh Jay is the more homophobic one. I mean, he doesn't like when Matt touches him in the web series, right? He he it that's not as much of a problem in Viceland, but like one of the things that comes up a lot is how does Jay see himself, right? He has to see himself as somebody who could be normal and could leave Matt and go get girls and go get famous because without that knowledge, like that's his entire self-image, and that knowledge allows him to stay with Matt while still thinking, oh, I could leave if I could. Um, so I think that this is part of it's just such a it's a very natural reaction from him. But once it is even poked a little bit by Matt, it doesn't hold up. Like it is a very sort of like instinctive, and then Matt is like, uh-uh, and and and Jay folds immediately. And then of course goes back to not wanting to do it, and then goes back to wanting to do it, and by the end of it, he's mad that he doesn't get to do it.

SPEAKER_03 50:35

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 50:36

I think it's incredible.

Steve 50:37

I think the biggest flip, we talked a lot in the web series days about Matt Johnson's in inability to be sincere, and the second he's sincere, he explodes and like has to kill it. I think in the Viceland show, they kind of flip that. Like Jay needs to be aloof and can't really be sincere in his emotions, while Matt is achingly sincere when he thinks people aren't looking.

SPEAKER_06 51:02

Yeah.

Steve 51:03

And I find that a really interesting flip.

SPEAKER_06 51:05

Yeah, I love all of the theories people have for the sort of changes in personalities in between web series and Vice Land. Uh, I've seen people say that's just what happens when you're in your 30s versus your 20s. I've seen people say Jay sustained a traumatic brain injury and that's why he's like that now. Uh, in between Web Series and Vice Land. Um, there's a lot of different reasons.

Kit 51:28

What's your theory?

SPEAKER_06 51:30

I think a lot of it probably has to do with the fact that they moved, right? So they they moved from their Queen Street apartment into the Shaw house. And in universe, I think that that was probably a huge tipping point. Um, because it really meant that Jay had to re-like to commit to Matt. You know, it I think probably Matt with his infinite money probably bought that house and is like, well, you come in with. And there was probably a moment where Jay tried to be like, no. And then when he eventually, whatever happened to eventually get him there, was it contributed to him sort of settling in in a much more meaningful way, like a meaningfully secure way um than in the web series. Because it meant accepting that like this is what his 30s were gonna be.

Michelle 52:13

Sleeping in a bunk bed with his best friend.

SPEAKER_06 52:15

I think you know you could you could make up a lot, but I think that the move is uh it it shows how those characters like physically got to where they are from where they were, but also emotionally. Again, I are Matt and Jay thinking about this. No, this is just my beautiful mind palace.

Steve 52:30

Well, I was watching an interview earlier um that just happened to just show up on YouTube uh while I was eating a burger. Uh, but it was they were it was about the movie, and they were asking Matt, like, what does your like older version, going back and seeing your younger version, like, what does that guy feel when he's reflecting? And Matt's like, not really much. I guess he's like, he grows into me. Fucking sweet. This guy's got his shit together. And Jay then goes off on a whole thing about how he was thinking internally and what his character may be going through and how he was reflecting. And I was like, Yep, Matt is just pure go, go, go, go, go. Oh, yeah. And Jay is the more reflective one.

SPEAKER_06 53:06

And I think in character, the character of Jay, like probably has gone through a lot of different like stages of justification. I mean, you see that in the show very much so. Um, and a lot of that probably involves like, well, he obviously really likes a lot about his life, otherwise, but then there are the moments where he doesn't are the really significant character moments. Um, so this is in the burger, it's it's like, okay, he's this is a this is something that Matt has never suggested before. And he's really taken aback. And and the question is, well, why now? You know, why is this coming up now? I my theory, you want to hear my theory? Always. Matt's been on Tumblr. He's been looking at gay gifts on Tumblr. He he he says the words in the in Vice Land, transphobia, heteronormativity. He has this expanded woke vocabulary, which indicates to me that he has been online. And I think that that's why he suggests this plan.

Michelle 54:05

What's what's the hot Tumblr stuff in 2016, 17? It's weird.

SPEAKER_06 54:10

This was this is a time when I wasn't on in college. I took a break from Tumblr, so I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

No, this is like Super Hulak was a bit played out at that point. But people were just getting into like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 54:21

2017 was like the adventure zone on Tumblr. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:26

Nightvale was that.

SPEAKER_06 54:27

Yeah, no, Night Vale was like 2013.

Michelle 54:29

Yeah, that was Here's a question. Has show version of Matt Johnson seen Miku binder Thomas Jefferson?

SPEAKER_06 54:37

Yes, 100%. 100%. I think I think that that show Matt would be very amused in a sort of classically like 4channy 2008 unwoke way at a lot of what goes down on Tumblr. And so he'd be on it because he's convinced himself that he's on there to laugh at them and to to be a sort of troll. But of course, it would all filter into his consciousness. He's also learning. He's also exactly he's learning.

SPEAKER_01 55:01

Also, he contains multitudes. Pre-porn pan, it was like a much wider swath of people on Tumblr, I would say. Yeah, yeah. Like I feel like I knew like a lot of normie dudes that were on it and like interacting with fandom people and being like, what is this?

SPEAKER_06 55:14

Yeah, totally.

Steve 55:15

It may just be a difference in experience, because I'm not gonna lie, whenever you mention an internet thing, I have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Anybody, Kit Michelle included.

Michelle 55:23

Like it's we'll send you a uh we'll send you binder Thomas Jefferson for your own personal reference.

Steve 55:29

I'm good. I like this dynamic. So, like cu coming from my viewpoint, I actually kind of look like where movies were at at the time. We know that Matt is like a big movie person, they have fucking criterion posters all over the place. 2015's when Tangerine came out. And that was like a really massive beginning of a movement in queer cinema being like accepted in the art house scene. Yeah. I think Matt's brain is like warped by cinema. Yeah or what he's seeing and movements in that. See, like, I I'm not obviously not an expert. See, I wouldn't ever view it as like he went online and saw stuff. For me personally, like, because he's such a movie guy, I think like that's where he's ingraining shit. I think he never thought about transphobia ever until like he fucking someone was like, go see this fucking Sean Baker movie.

SPEAKER_06 56:17

Or, you know, like he was the the the the moonlight la la land uh Oscars mix-up. But yeah, Steve, I think that's a really good point. Is he's as much as I treasure my Tumblrina Matt headcanon, I think you're probably right that he he did was uh getting culture sort of through movies and and and and that's how he was learning what was up. Again, relating to the to the hangover scene, like he's been in audiences continuously, which is interesting though, because in the in the in the movie they're like, we haven't been to a movie as as friends in a long time, which makes me sad because I'm like, oh, is Matt going to the movies by himself to see new releases?

Steve 56:52

Well he is because in the buffet he does first of all, I go to the movies by myself at least once a week. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_06 56:58

Yeah, but you're not Matt from Nervado's Man the show.

Steve 57:01

That's what you think. Uh no, but uh but in the in the buffet, he when he goes, he mentions that he was just at the movies.

SPEAKER_06 57:10

That's that's that's true. That that sequence is funny because it's obviously they're doing my dinner with Andre and like they're just recreating that. I'm like, I don't believe that they go places separately like that. But no, that's a good point. It is in the show.

Steve 57:21

You know, I I do I've always looked at it that way. Like I because well fucking 2008 cinema was a hellscaper. Uh so like it was the hangover, but like I I'm very curious to see like what season three looks like in terms of this stuff and kind of where he's at, because you know, movies are weird now.

Kit 57:41

Yeah, yeah. 2008 wasn't that bad for movies.

Steve 57:45

I mean, mainstream I think it was pretty.

SPEAKER_06 57:49

When was 500 days of summer? Was that 08? That feels right.

Michelle 57:52

That was around then, yeah.

Steve 57:53

Yeah, yeah. Matt Johnson saw 500 Days of Summer. Tried to do it to Jay, stayed in the elevator, talked about Smith.

SPEAKER_06 58:02

Oh, I mean, I could see that 100%.

Steve 58:05

I want an episode where they fight in an Ikea. Hi, I saw that movie on a date.

SPEAKER_06 58:11

I I I also saw that movie on what might have been my first date in my life with my middle school boyfriend. Incredible.

Steve 58:18

I'm so fucking old, Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_06 58:20

I'm not that young, I'm 30.

Steve 58:23

I've got 11, 12 years on you, my friend.

SPEAKER_06 58:26

It's so funny being in a fandom. This is the first time I've like joined a new fandom in earnest since I was like probably my mid-20s, which wasn't that long ago. But now it's like, oh, a lot of people in this fandom are in their mid-20s and I am older than them. That's a normal age to be in fandom, and now I'm at this age where I'm I'm like low-key feeling chopped. It is okay though, because obviously this is a property that's made by millennials. Um like there is a many people older than me who like this, but it I feel like I'm in a weird like middle ground. Yeah.

Michelle 58:56

Millennial safe space.

SPEAKER_06 58:57

I I still don't know if I'm a millennial or not. The scientists have not decided this if people born in 1995 are millennials.

Michelle 59:04

Yeah. Right on the edge. Um, I do like how this plan uh inadvertently also predicts the plot of heated rivalry, which is incredible. Beautiful linkage to another like hot fandom space. Heated rivelly. Oh shit. I would make that up. Uh you could have told me you did.

Kit 59:25

I would watch Heated Rivalry, and then right after we finished it, then we started watching Nirvana the band. And then as we made our way through the web series, and then we got to this episode, I was just like, oh my god, this is a prediction. How is this possible? It's so good.

SPEAKER_06 59:39

Hockey plus kissing equals magic burger.

Steve 59:43

Do I need to finally watch that? No.

SPEAKER_06 59:46

Yeah.

Steve 59:46

I have at least one person a week tell me I need to watch Eatic Rivalry. It's fine.

SPEAKER_06 59:51

It's fine, but it's no Nirvana the band. Well, yes.

SPEAKER_01 59:55

But there's something about it. I don't know. I I like it.

Kit 59:58

I want you to watch it just for the first episode alone because I'm not.

Steve 1:00:00

I watched the first episode, and it made me want to dive out a window because how many fucking time jumps are we doing in 45 minutes?

Kit 1:00:06

Honestly, the amount of time jumps on that made me love it more because I was like, this is fucking nuts. Where are we even going? I don't know.

Steve 1:00:12

Let's What was the Lindsay Lohan movie we watched where we were like, she was jumping through years and Michelle is obsessed with the COVID?

Michelle 1:00:21

Oh, it's her Christmas movie where um what's his face? The guy from Mission Impossible is her dad in a whole Tom Cruise.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:29

No, the other one. Tom Cruise too. Yeah. Um, I the the hockey element in this is really funny because I the one of the things that like Jay says, like, we don't know anything about hockey, which is such it's his deliver delivery of that line kills me every time. It's such a throwaway line, but it says so much about who these guys are. They're just the not sports guys.

Michelle 1:00:51

No, they're not. No. They're too busy making plans.

Steve 1:00:54

Do you know what Kill her saying? That Matt had to have spent $300 on those jerseys.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:59

Oh yeah. But again, we know that money is meaningless to him.

Steve 1:01:03

I would love to have just two jerseys on a whim.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:06

Mm-hmm. I think I wonder what the most that they spent on a plan is. Obviously, they got all that money out from the bank for the bean, but um but that wasn't from their own account.

Michelle 1:01:15

That they just convinced the the bank to give them a loan. Right. In a big bag.

Steve 1:01:24

So there's a joke in the I know we're only in the opening. But there's a joke in the opening like credit sequence that kills me, which is when Matt goes, So the Rivoli's a venue in Toronto. The reason we want to play there is, and then it cuts, is so funny. It's really good.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:42

Which is really, really funny. And that leads me into my next note that I have about this episode, which is that the scene where they're out in front of the Rivoli um and they're just deciding what to do is another really great example to pay attention to for editing and continuity purposes because this is uh uh they reshot this and they've cut together two different, at least two different days of shooting here. You can tell because Matt's hair length changes. Um and you can also tell because they're shooting at different times of day and the light is completely different, and Matt's background is stand like it's pointed in a different direction. Um, and you don't notice that when you're watching it for the first time and maybe even the second time, but once you've been clued in about how this show is constructed, you can spot this. And I know from some interview or another, I do not have my sources here, this episode went through a lot, a lot, a lot of changes and reshoots because Matt and Jay really wanted to do the KISS plan, and all the other guys in the show were like, no. It was originally supposed to be an episode just about improv. Um and the kiss and the I think the kiss and the burger part parts that are connected were introduced later. And so they there was a lot, a lot of reshaping this episode that was going on. And I think this was one the episode that maybe most frustrated the creative team. Uh, I don't remember where I heard that, but you can see in this episode where they're shooting this this material about improv. It's interesting to see what might have been shot later and inserted to make the stuff about improv gel with the burger stuff and the kiss plant stuff. That's so interesting.

Michelle 1:03:12

One of my thoughts about this episode as a whole is like there is a lot going on, a lot of plot crammed into like 22 minutes. Yeah. And that context is fascinating. Yeah. Um, and also I'm realizing I feel like I could tell sometimes when they did like reshoots or cut together different things in the web series because it was it felt very blatant a lot of the time, like hair like drastically different, and there's something about maybe like the higher quality camera that just like smooths everything over, and I'm like, all happened exactly like this. Yeah. This is a documentary, everything is true. Everything is true. Um, they go to an improv class. Um, the improv class features the return of one of my favorite side characters, um, Reed. Uh is his name Reed? Is his character name Reed in the show? Okay. What a treat.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:03

I love him so much. The strength of the fiberglass pole is amazing.

Michelle 1:04:08

I really liked that his his reappearance here is is in an episode that like it's not exactly the same, but the plot feels like it sort of mirrors the web series episode where he shows up where like Matt and Jay are split apart and like trying to like be do things that the other one is good at. Yeah. And in this case, it's uh improv and um watching Wahburgers.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:32

So Jay worked with Reed at Second City for many years. Um and so that's a fun little uh tidbit about why he he comes back and also why Jay is like good at improv. Um but it's knowing that also the well the way that they film this, like the cameramen were like behind these curtains. And again, like it's I'm just watching this and like wondering like how it's so funny and it works so well. Filming it must have been this like quite a long process and cutting it together so that it makes emotional sense is so impressive. Yeah. Like the shot where there's a zoom in on Matt's hands and he's like gripping his own hands because he's he's so mad. So the cameraman has to be so attuned into what is going on with the performer. It's it's amazing.

Michelle 1:05:15

Yeah. I do actually to take one brief step back, the the scene where Jay is trying to convince Matt to change the plan and do improv, the series of faces that he makes that's like big puppy dog eyes and like I wrote little finger for it. But I haven't seen one million gifts of that scene. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place, but it's it's perfect. I loved every second of it. I loved how long it went on, which was a while. It's perfect to me. And Matt, of course, folding. He's like, Yeah, you'd love deeply.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:54

That's like one of the most charged emotionally scenes between the two of them, I feel, especially when he Like kind of break and try to force him to admit that yes, you would you would love it if yeah it's perfect.

Steve 1:06:07

Well, because I also think Matt is so hurt because like Jay's like we're gonna do one plan, and Matt goes like okay, and then Jay throws that in his face. And this goes back to my long held theory that Jay is the real nightmare person in the two of them. Yeah, well he's a murderer, yeah. But also like that, I like I Matt is intense. Jay, I think, is terrible. He's evil. And like and that is such a cruel thing to do to Matt. Like, be like, we're better at him than improv.

Michelle 1:06:39

Yeah.

Steve 1:06:39

No, but just to be like, hey, I want to change your whole Matt's hyped. He's like, I want to change the whole thing you're excited for. Matt goes okay. And then Jay being like, Well, no, I'm actually gonna throw another wrench in here. Which if I was Matt, I'd be so fucking pissed. I'm just gonna say. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:55

You you'd you'd you'd fake hang yourself too.

Steve 1:06:58

Yeah. You've done it many times on this podcast.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:03

Yeah, no, Jay's very evil. Um, but they're perfect for each other, so yeah.

Steve 1:07:07

They're in love. No, no, neither one of them is great, but I think in terms of one towards the other one, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:13

Yeah, yeah.

Steve 1:07:14

Jay has more malice, Matt has more desperation.

Michelle 1:07:18

That's a really great way to put it, yeah. Do you do you think Jay knew the whole time that he was already really good at improv? Oh, yeah. Oh, I think so. Or is he just naturally gifted? Does he have it? I think.

Kit 1:07:29

One thing I thought was that when he's doing the improv scenes, a lot of the things that he's doing are things that Matt has already done in previous seasons or previous episodes. Wherever he's like, we're tending to be blind or like whatever. I was like, oh, Matt did that. Matt did that.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:41

Yeah, yeah. Well, Jay's like a sponge, he's he soaks stuff up.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:45

Uh whereas Matt is already always trying something new, which doesn't necessarily always be naturally a good improviser because he's such a good listener in a way. And when Matt attempts to improv, also this scene really does hit for me as someone that has been through many, many awkward improv classes, and there always is someone like Matt who sort of comes in with like a predetermined, has already sat around thinking of something clever to say, and then improv is obviously all about listening and reacting to the other person. So it makes sense that he like lacks that skill, whereas Jay is able to tap in pretty much immediately.

Michelle 1:08:21

Yeah. I'm so curious about the other people in this improv class, because like obviously Reed, who's leading the class, knows them, but like there are some interactions between them and the other students that feel so genuine. Like I love that woman. And the woman in the gray sweatshirt. I was like, shout out to her for being like a hey, like, you're taking up too much space and like you're interrupting the flow. Can you get back in line? I was like, what an amazing person. Yeah.

Steve 1:08:46

So having watched this twice in a row today, like my read on that is that they may have told an improv group, we're going to do a scene with these two guys, and we want you to respond to it. Because the way that that woman responds to Matt, which is great, don't get me wrong, there are these like moments of pause that are borderline theatrical. Because she's like, hmm, well, why don't you go back to the line?

SPEAKER_06 1:09:14

Like it's just another instructor though. So but I with a lot of these scenes, as far as I know, where they're like technically shooting in public but also in private, they'll tell people that they're filming, but they won't say what they're filming or what they're gonna do. Um so that way they can get a natural reaction while also getting um sort of uh consent to to to film.

Michelle 1:09:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:37

Yeah.

Michelle 1:09:38

Cause I I would be surprised like that didn't read theatrical to me. That read like someone who is like, this person's being a loon. I need to like maybe speak in a way that will like make them pay attention. Fair. It just felt scripted, I guess.

Steve 1:09:53

I don't it didn't feel scripted to me. It just felt like I know I'm in a scene of a thing performing. Theatrical is maybe not the right word, but again, yeah in a performance. Sure.

Michelle 1:10:04

I think it's just interesting because the at least parts of it that they include of that improv class do genuinely feel like people who are very new to improv and learning how to do it and like starting things off with like, yes, and it's so perfect to me that like that is going, I don't know. I really love it.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:24

Uh there's always people asking on Twitter, like a fun question is like, oh, what are the scenes that you have to skip over because you find them too embarrassing to watch? And a lot of people say the scene, the improv scene, whereas for me, like I never had a problem with this scene because all I do is hang out with comedians. And so I have sat through many, many a clown show and an improv show, and like I my tolerance for this stuff is fairly high. Whereas there's scenes that are particularly the scenes that are like at the Rivoli restaurant where they're like fucking with the people there, like in the buddy. I like I cannot watch. Cannot, cannot watch. Um, but I loved, I love Reed in this sort of playing the the straight man. I I I want the the read cut of everything. I think he's so so funny, and I'm so mad that he got mostly cut out of the movie.

Michelle 1:11:09

Was he supposed to have a bigger role? Because he just has like a brief campaign.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:12

Well, he's Famous Jay's manager, and they shot a week's worth of stuff. That's right. Like in the original version of the movie, like like Jay was in that world for like a week. So there's a ton more stuff with Reed that they didn't use.

Steve 1:11:22

You got a hashtag to start. Release the re cut.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:25

Release the recut.

Steve 1:11:28

My crown that I keep in my stomach is a phrase that Matt says and I will think about till I die.

Michelle 1:11:35

I think the guy playing opposite him who um said Jellytown didn't get enough claps. So yeah, claps for that guy. Great joke.

Steve 1:11:44

But why would the see this this is where I'm Matt? Because I was like, all right, he's saying that like he's got like a gelatin city, and he's like, Well, I'm from a purple town, and I was like, though what? Like, no, it's gotta be like another like food item. And that that's why I like I was like, no, Matt Matt's wrong for the space, but he's like right morally. You know, like why would why would a king be talking to a mayor? Why would it be purple and gelatin? That's not that none of that makes sense.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:15

Well, this these are the people that he needs on his team.

Steve 1:12:18

Yeah. I will die defending 60% of what Matt Johnson does in the show.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:23

Oh my god.

Michelle 1:12:24

That's a really high percentage.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:26

Yeah, much higher than I thought. I'm I'm right there with you, man.

Michelle 1:12:30

Um, I also think this whole scene just being, we've already talked about this briefly, but being filmed from behind a curtain just really kills me that you know Jared is sneaking around back there, and then Matt storms out and he says he's gonna leave, and then it's just like very distant shots of him lingering in the door for quite a while.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:50

Jared loves that linger, and I there's a the moment in the movie where he zooms in on like the darkness, which which according to the commentary he found very funny. Is there's a lot of great stuff like that. My question is when Matt leaves and goes to the Wahlburgers, is a really a Wahlbergers across from Second City or is it an editing trick? B, what came first, the improv plan or the burger plan in that in the constructing of that episode? Did they like go to Second City to scout and be like, oh, there's a Wahburgers across the street? Like, how do we use that? Very curious. Oh.

Steve 1:13:20

Well, because Jay does like, oh, it's a Wahlbergers, they have a show. And I could be like, that could spawn an entire episode, just have one line.

Michelle 1:13:26

That might have come from that the way that they shoot the show, like us Google it, and there's like, this show has 10 fucking seasons, except it had like one at that point.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:34

I know the story is that when when they did decide to do the Wahlburgers thing, Kurt Lobb used to work in reality TV, and he couldn't whip together these like reality TV show-esque like transitions and like picture-in-picture stuff. So, like one of the reasons that I think they use this as the device episode is because of his skill in putting together um reality show type stuff.

Michelle 1:13:55

That's so interesting because the all of the like uh confessional scenes, and I guess like the whole episode, they have this like jangly royalty-free music that I'm like some somebody who has like worked deeply in the space of like a low-budget reality show knew exactly where to pull this from.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:13

This is in my notes because when I was watching this episode, I was like, oh, the horrible fucking library music is so funny. And in the credits, it's actually credited to Wahlberg. So they just took the library music from the Wahlberger show and used it in. Because I was like, oh, did Jay do like funny like sound aliks or whatever? But they think they just used the music from the show, which is very funny.

Steve 1:14:34

Uh a buddy of mine uh used to just like record shit and put them up for like low-cost licensing. And still for years, he will get like a check for like four dollars from some like weird streaming reality show. Yeah, yeah. Like, still years later, it's so interesting.

Michelle 1:14:51

Is your friend making the like oddly specific ones that go on like a real housewives or a love island of like I'm getting eggs from the fruit? No, it's my favorite song.

Steve 1:15:09

Um, it's he would just like throw up instrumental stuff, yeah, uh like of various emotional tones, and people would license them for like next to nothing, like through like a third-party service, and then he just gets a jack in the mail uh for a couple of bucks a year. And he's like, I don't know what like you know, Sandy's house is or whatever.

Michelle 1:15:29

There are so many reality shows in the world, and so many of them that have been going on for dozens of seasons that I will never know about.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:37

The confessional scenes are so funny in this episode because they're just acting crazy.

Michelle 1:15:42

I am so delighted when I encounter an episode that has one of the like major gifable scenes, and this was this was an enormous one.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:55

Yeah. So this is a rare episode where we have Matt being the sort of magical thinker. Usually it's Jay. Um, like in the buffet when he's like, you know, uh the sign, this sign from Jesus Christ, and like he's usually the more superstitious one. Um so this is one where Matt is like having this moment of of having his head in the cloud head in the clouds a bit, which is interesting. I guess he's at that fever pitch of desperation to kiss Jay that he will believe in a magic burger.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:20

I think this episode, I mean, the whole show is about desire, not to harp on desire, but this one especially in a very nakedly, openly way, is about desire. Um are any of y'all familiar with the game Disco Elysium? Oh, yes, I am. Yeah. Yeah. So you know there's like an interview with one of the writers about uh Kim and Harry and how the relationship between Kim and Harry is like very messed up and kind of charged and erotic and like it's an almost Matt Jay-esque way. And when asked by the interviewer, like, why can't Harry Dubois and Kim Kitseragi make out? He said, like, well, the thing about desire is that it's stronger when it's not fully satisfied. And I in rewatching the episode today, I was like, it it's just so blatant for me that like Matt does desire Jay, but it's beyond just like the lipidinal or the platonic. There's like something else, like maybe wanting to possess someone or like live under their skin a little bit. Um and you know, like the Buddhist concept of um desire and suffering, and how like it's the root of all of all suffering and sort of dissatisfaction, striving for like material things, striving to be like complete, but you can't. Um for whatever reason, the burger really had me thinking about all of this stuff kind of encoded into the show. So my pitchery was like, does nirvana have uh two meanings? Is it is it the name of the band that the show is named after, or is it also like a state of enlightenment that they're both like chasing that they cannot um achieve?

Steve 1:17:51

Well, it's that's why there's two ends. Oh my god, it's two layered.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:55

It's just the Sissiphian sort of quest of the show. It's like, well, there's the Rivli, and then there's also like that as a sort of relationship, like synectic for their relationship, and a lot of things are representing other things. Um then it's also that that quote, the Matt, the famous Matt quote, uh about having uh no, what is it, um, you know, no sexual no sexual designs that he knows of. And so it's this thing of this is the moment where the knowledge comes the closest to the surface of his consciousness, the character's consciousness, and that is really interesting. And also interesting at the end of the episode, like, yeah, they don't kiss, but there's like, well, we'll get to the end of the episode, but it's like, or do they?

Steve 1:18:39

Well, to jump to that scene, actually, I think. Like, it, you know, obviously we'll bounce around a little bit, but I think because we're on this, like Matt, um, you know, they they get thrown out, and then Matt is like, oh, come here, gonna get through that kiss. And they're and they're giggling and running. Yeah. And that scene actually breaks my heart because it does. Like, it makes me so deeply sad because there is this dual level of like they're having fun and joking around. And Matt is so desperate to use that to like meet his desire, it feels like it's just that, oh, now's my chance. It's like the oh, wouldn't it be funny if we made out?

SPEAKER_06 1:19:18

Because he can't do this plan again. He doesn't repeat plans.

Steve 1:19:21

Can't repeat the plan, but also this is the first time there is a very clear in to make this like move safely. Like, there's no other time where like, haha, kissing will be so funny, where like Matt could actually make that direct ask. And it just it just tears my heart out. The pure desperation mixed with euphoria, and like you know he's not gonna get what he wants, and he knows, but he's just so desperate for it.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:49

Well, that's why we have the power of fandom. Yeah. And I think, and then Jay is yelling, like, oh, I don't want the kiss, but he's kind of kidding, and like there's a playfulness to that where it's like a ooh, like a no, no, yes, like thing going on. They're doing a little bit of their sort of screwball comedy there. I don't know. And there's like a guy like standing in front of their house while they're running by doing this, which is which is which is classic.

Steve 1:20:12

No, no, it's so interesting, you know. Like, I'm not in like reading fan of stuff at all. So most of this is just off the dome. I think I of what we've talked about, Kit Michelle and I, and I've seen the few that I've been that I've seen, I think I'm the only one that I've heard be like, Matt is deeply in love with Jay, and Jay loves Matt as a friend and doesn't want Matt to be in love with him. There's so like I keep seeing, like, you know, they're in love with each other, and I can understand that read. But just it feels so much to me like it's not reciprocal.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:45

I think that's a super valid read. I think that like that is uh a valid interpretation, but I think that people go to fanworks because it's they want to have a dream world basically where ever anything is possible.

Steve 1:20:59

This is a world I do not understand at all.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:01

So that's why I'm here. That's what that's why they pay me the big bucks, is to explain this stuff stuff to people. So while that is in that is absolutely a valid read and lends a lot of weight to what happens in the show between the characters, um, I think that if somebody were to write that and post it, everyone would be like, why did you write this? Now I'm now it's worse. You go to fanfiction for it to be better, right? Or or or or or to achieve something that maybe to some extent goes against the grain of the canon, but in an interpretive way that is sort of socially approved. And and that is why we have like tropes basically, um, because we fandom, transformative fandom has existed for about 60 years. Um, and in that time, a set, essentially a library of sort of stock tropes have popped up, which is when when you want something specific that you're not getting out of a canon, you resort to these tropes as sort of scaffolding to build that sort of story uh to satisfy again, to satisfy that, to satisfy that desire that's that's that's internal. And one of the things that pops up in my research about, especially like 90s fandom when fandom was first coming out of the internet, is that there was a big um blow up in X-Files fandom. That's where the word shipping comes from, right? There were the relationshippers and there were the no romos. And they would get in these huge flame wars on these message boards because the no romos were like, we don't want Mulder and Scully to get be get together because desire is more powerful when it's not satisfied, and that would ruin the show and it would make it a soap opera and it would be too girly. And there were a lot of reasons that people didn't want them to get together on the show. And a lot of the shippers were like, Yeah, we get that, but we're allowed to have our own fantasies where that desire is fulfilled because that's fulfilling for us. So this was the first time that this was really being negotiated. This idea that just because you want characters to get together and you really believe in their chemistry doesn't mean that you want it to happen in the show. And in fact, you might that's a dialectic that can absolutely exist, right? You don't want something to happen on the show, but that's why fanworks exist so that you can explore it on your own terms and on your own terms as a community.

Michelle 1:23:00

I mean, there's a there's a great line from other famous fan fiction uh character, Spock, that's like you may have the, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing as wanting. And there's all this yearning that goes on. And um, like sometimes the official canon version of the thing that you thought you wanted is just like, oh man, that's not how I wanted it. Yep. And so to to be able to just imagine a million different ways that it could happen is is more exciting, more fulfilling.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:34

And that is why I think the the fourth wall is this very fragile thing. And as more media explores canon queer relationships and appeals to the same audiences that you know, stuff like you know, Kirk and Spock did, you have like it's a sort of ongoing renegotiation of like, oh, what is it we actually want as an audience? Should we go back? Yes, let's let's go back to the wall burgers. The part where they, I guess, yeah, where they wishes on a burger. He wishes on a burger.

Steve 1:24:01

That Jay will come back and apologize.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:03

When Jay apologizes, he's doing one of my favorite things that that this character does, which is he's kind of like stilted, almost like very like soap opera-y sounding apologies. He does this again in one other episode. I forget when they're standing out in front of the Rivoli and it's so funny every time, or he's just like, like, it's like he's pre-written a speech.

Michelle 1:24:23

The one where they break into now magazine and then he's apologizing for breaking, stealing the phone, breaking the phone, lying about it.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:29

The guy is like, is this supposed to be funny? But it's it's a recurring thing that he does. I I just okay, it's because he he wants it to be like a movie for Matt because that's how Matt understands the world. So he's like, I have to apologize. Like, we're like, like, like this is my movie moment above apologizing to Matt.

Michelle 1:24:46

I am so curious. Like, you know, later in the episode, they say, like, you know, it's stupid to think this was a magic burger. It was just a series of coincidences. But like, what happened between Matt leaving the improv class and Jay coming in to the Wahlbergers that made him say, I apologize, and I would like to go back to the original plan? Because it seems like he could have just been like, Great, we don't have to kiss anymore. Like, he was the one who reinitiated the case.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:13

He recognized me and then he remembered what had happened last time that he was alone in a room with Reed and what Matt did, and and that's he got scared and he ran away. He's like, Oh, what the fuck? It's that guy.

Steve 1:25:25

I think he was so caught up in the moment that, like in having fun doing the improv, that I don't think he realized that Matt left. And I don't I think Jay is kind of evil, but I don't think he wants to have it weigh on him that he actively hurt Matt. There's that moment where you're like, oh fuck, I actually hurt somebody I love. Even if I didn't think I did something wrong, which I don't think Jay thinks he did something wrong. I I need to go apologize anyway. And for me, that's why I think he does that cinematic movie language apology, is because it's like, I know Matt is hurt. I need to make Matt feel better. I didn't really do anything wrong.

Kit 1:26:00

And you can hear that in his apology, where he's I didn't write it down, but it's like basically like, you know, I'm sorry that you looked bad at improv. I didn't mean for that to happen. Like it's still not Jay's fault.

Michelle 1:26:11

Yeah, it never is. I'm sorry you felt sad that I was really good at improv.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:16

Yeah.

Michelle 1:26:18

A perfect apology.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:19

Perfect apology.

Steve 1:26:20

No, no, it's when they do the format shift and they're doing the more talking to the camera, talking head thing, there's a slight tweak in the performances. And I didn't notice this until third watch in the last week. Uh, where they act a little more reality TV. Oh, yeah. The camera. They're a little more yeah. And but it's like half a tick up. It's not like too far. It's so interesting how much it shifts the entire tone of the rest of the episode.

Michelle 1:26:48

Something also this is sort of inconsequential, but Jay is wearing a scarf in his confessional scenes. Where'd that come from? For reasons that they never address that I don't understand, that he's never worn before, and we'll see if he wears it again after, but I suspect no.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:05

I have the feeling that's an in-joke or a reference to something specific in Wahlberg's, but I I don't know what it is. But a lot of stuff they deal with just because they even think about that.

Michelle 1:27:12

Maybe one of the Wahlberg boys is always wearing a scarf. Something like maybe they murdered the owner of the Rebel and took it. It's not a big red scarf. It's true. Red scarf, unfortunately. Yeah. For me. I miss Vince Valence.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:26

When they're going to the hockey game, I get the sense that that was not the night of the actual game that they went to. Um for some reason. I just I don't know. I'm just like, because they probably needed, they needed like a bridge scene there or something like that.

Steve 1:27:39

Yeah, well, also because um CTV wouldn't be choosing who's on the Jumbotron.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:44

Yeah, there's coming up with that.

Steve 1:27:46

Yeah, not like that. Like when they're like, oh, we're gonna like impress these guys. Like I go to enough baseball games. SNY is not picking who goes on the Jumbotron at the new at the New York Metropolitans.

Michelle 1:27:56

Yeah. I also love that the play that they're like, we're gonna improvise this. Story to get these guys to put us on the jumbotron. And what they do is not improvise a story, it is play a bunch of improv games in front of the cameramen who are just like, uh-huh. Okay, but they're having fun. They're having so much fun, and I'm having fun too.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:15

One of the other behind-the-scenes tidbits I remember from this is that it's really hard to get a camera into the stadium. So when they're inside, you can see it shot on a different, smaller, probably like a digital camera.

Michelle 1:28:28

You know what I was wondering about, and this is so small, um, was how do they get those wall burgers into the stadium?

SPEAKER_06 1:28:40

Maybe just the bag, yeah. Gotten burgers inside.

Steve 1:28:43

It also depends, because here we go. You know me, gotta bring the Mets in whenever we can on this podcast. City Field has a whatever food you want policy. You can bring in a whole ass pizza if you want to bring it into City Field. The spaghetti situation at City Field. So, like, you know, maybe spaghetti? You literally could walk in with a 10-foot party sub. They will not stop you.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:04

Well, there's like an amazing food court of like Asian food nearby, too. So you can just like get whatever you want and bring it in.

Steve 1:29:11

Yep. So like it maybe they have the same thing at the maple leaves. You can bring whatever food in you want, and you can bring in seven Wahburgers.

Michelle 1:29:19

And eat them all in there really fast.

Steve 1:29:21

Do you know they sell Wahger's brand ground beef at the grocery store?

SPEAKER_06 1:29:24

What? Shirts full of mad cow.

Steve 1:29:27

I went to the grocery store and I'm like, you know, get going to get my groceries, and I look and there's just like an entire section of Wahburgers ground beef.

Michelle 1:29:35

So did you get some?

Steve 1:29:37

No.

Michelle 1:29:38

What? I have enough gastrointestinal issues of packaged food goods is so insane.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:43

They're filming um inside this stadium or whatever, and I think someone found out which game they specifically were at, which is pretty funny. Um, but and then just like from the game footage. And is this this is I'm sure that's not like fun for them. Like having done a fair bit of filming like outside, we've never done any like real like public interaction stuff. Like we've done obviously the stuff at the meetup and that the um walking tour, which is different because you're like surrounded by fans. We have not like one time the one we attempted to film at a cafe and they yelled at us. And then we found another cafe where they were like Kenley film, and they were like, please do we love you, which is great. But even then, it's not like you're I do like I fund, I do not understand how they do it. It is so, so, so scary to be walking around with camera and to be trying to do stuff. It gets actually incredibly scary. Anytime that they're it's like I just have a whole newfound respect for how they make this, especially the parts where they're out in public or they're in a store or or like whatever. I'm like, it's actually incredible what they're doing. I don't really think people understand how crazy it is.

Michelle 1:30:49

Yeah. And to like just go in like sort of no fear and wait for someone to tell you no.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:54

And also to be acting and to be trying to like do a story the whole time is is also crazy. Because I've been doing the thing, I've, you know, I've been in front of the camera and I'm directing, I know what needs to happen. And and we're shooting quite traditionally with like scenes and cuts and stuff. And even then, I'm like, this is hard. How is Matt in character in front of the camera for hours at a time? I mean, I imagine that there is some back and forth, but I think they're really just they're really going for it. And actually, having had that question in our conversations with Luca, the answer is essentially that Jared is really doing a lot of the real directing. And he is able to perceive when something isn't working from his perspective, and he gives a lot of the suggestions and and and essentially directs the action while they're rolling, um, which is which is amazing, which I think he doesn't get enough credit for.

Steve 1:31:42

Matt was saying in an interview about the movie that the entire 2008 bit was basically directed by the editors. Yeah, yeah. That they went through a hundred hours of footage, clipped together, and said, We need you guys to do this, this, this, and this. And that's going to be the sequence. So I think Matt is a guy who trusts his collaborators, which I think probably makes doing that work a little easier. Because if you're getting caught, you're getting caught with a bunch of people you trust.

Michelle 1:32:08

Yeah. Do you feel like learning more about how they produce the show like makes you appreciate it more? Because we've talked about this a little bit of like, do you just sort of like roll with it and say, like, I accept that all of this is real, it's being presented to me as it happens, or do you like it sounds like you're looking for the cuts and you're looking for the edits and because it's all so inspiring for what we're doing.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:30

And um again, like not we're not trying to wholesale take their entire process, but like we are obviously incorporating like quite a lot of it um as a starting point. And yeah, I'm a total fiend for for behind the scenes stuff. I can't get enough of it. It's it's all incredible. I also, for the same reason that I love reading about like musicians in the studio, and I I love being behind the scenes at comedy shows and at and at theater shows, I'm just a big behind and I used to work in music management. I just love being there while something is being made or being as close as I can to the process of something being made. That has always been the case for me. And this is an incre it's it's it's feeding that part of my brain like crazy, finding out how how and why they do everything. Um, and like I can't wait, you know, 10 years. I want like the full like meet me in the bathroom style oral history of Zapruder films with like all these crazy stories from behind the scenes. Like, I would eat that up.

Steve 1:33:21

You would also be surprised how far you can get by just confidently walking into a room.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:25

Like, and I think that's my whole life. That's my whole life.

Steve 1:33:28

Like, I've I've talked myself into so many places I was not supposed to be just by acting like I was supposed to be there. And Matt Johnson knows how to act like he s belongs in any room. Yeah. I think that gets them pretty fucking far.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is true. Um, and also he's talked about how people when when they act kind of like doofuses in public, people want to help them and be nice because they think they are just struggling, um, which is also very funny.

Michelle 1:33:51

Speaking of the people around them, I think when they actually do get to the Jumbotron sequence of this, um, I was so curious watching it like, are all these other people that they show the people who were actually on the Jumbotron at their game? And then were they genuinely on the Jumbotron? I'm sure they were not. I'm sure they were not.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:10

I'm it it it's a fun mix, and they want to keep they want you to be asking that question. But I'm I'm I'm almost positive that it's probably the rest of them were real, and then I suspect that Matt and Jay were fake.

Michelle 1:34:23

I am curious if the other gay couple and also there is a line where Jay talking head is like, all these other couples are getting shown up on the screen as like other couples? But I am so curious because it is like part of like this particular episode's plan, like was that something that they sort of planted in there too, or did that genuinely happen? I don't know.

Steve 1:34:47

Yeah, so Matt eats too many burgers, making wishes. Uh, they're doing the kiss cam. They show two guys who wish Jay goes, two guys on the screen. And I was like, that's put that in 2008 and has a totally different meaning. You know, Matt then it cuts to Matt and he pukes everywhere. And it's so beautifully timed. It's so fucking funny. And there's also the guy sitting next to Jay is trying so hard not to look at the camera. Like his eyes are drifting and his head just a little bit. And it's really, really funny because he's like, Don't look at him, don't look at him, don't look at him. And they get thrown out for puking at uh two guys kissing.

SPEAKER_06 1:35:33

It's it's so funny. I don't know if you guys have seen the dirties, um, but there's a there's a moment in the dirties where Matt gets, or he seems on camera to receive blueprints to his school from like the local planning office, and you're like, what? How did he do that? Because it's like it's so you know, he's he's there for real and they're filming for real. And then in the commentary, he's like, Oh, I I handed the guy this thing, and I asked him a question about it, and then I said, Oh, can you give that back to me? And he gave it back to him, and that's what they use to get the footage as if the guy had gotten these these prints out for him. So when they're getting thrown out, I was like, Oh, they probably like went up to do something to make it look like they were getting thrown out. Yeah. It was a classic Matt Johnson move.

unknown 1:36:15

Really?

Steve 1:36:15

It's a good move. And then we get to them, you know, running through the streets and Matt being like, go get your kiss. And as I said before, it broke my heart.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:23

It doesn't have to break your heart if you can believe it went a different way.

Michelle 1:36:28

You can write your own story where they do.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:30

No, but I know. Yeah, you're sticking- you have you've got your story and you're sticking to it, and I really respect that, even though it makes you sad.

Steve 1:36:36

Most things I like make me sad. Uh so valid.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:40

That is so valid. And it's, you know what? Nirvana the band, the show is capable of making me like the saddest. And that is the mark of something that I'm like truly obsessed with.

Michelle 1:36:50

Did did either of you cry at the movie? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:57

Great. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, and like I was gonna say the last thing that I was obsessed with this much is a show about like a hundred dudes dying in the Arctic. Like, obviously, that made me sad as hell. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Um, but yeah, obviously I love stuff that makes me sad. And I think the mark of a great Sean, were we talking about this? Everything has to contain its own opposite, right? So a comedy, something that is the funniest thing ever, also has the potential to contain the most sadness possible. And that's how you get these highs and these lows, very, very much present in this in this canon.

Steve 1:37:34

I think that's the reason I love this show so much. Is as like most things I like, uh, like that's not just stupid, uh, it is there is this through line of complete sadness and desperation and heartbreak. And I think if that wasn't there, I would not like this show as much as I do. No, we've talked a lot here about my deep love of jackass, which I think has runs a similar tone to this of like genuine emotion, love, but also just goofiness, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:38:08

Like, yeah.

Steve 1:38:09

And again, like there's a million prank things, and I find them insufferable and I hate them, but I would die for Johnny Knoxville. Like, it's it's that Nirvana of the band has that same through line of like emotional core. Yeah. Theirs is more joyful, this is more sad.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:22

And I think Matt has talked about how what they find what when the characters are at their most sort of um emotional, they also find that the funniest. So that's why they lean on those moments. Is I think you might call that bathos, or you might just call that like again, like the moments that are the saddest have the potential to contain the most humor because of the distance between those two extremes. But like, yeah, like like Matt and Jay have said, like, they find the moments where the characters that are at their most serious the funniest, and that's why they put them in, which is an interesting way to look at it. And I don't necessarily know that's if that's how all the viewers perceive it, but I know that that's why they have these moments. And um, I think they it's so funny hearing them talk about these like emotional moments in the show, especially in the web series, because that's when they were still trying to like find the tonal language of who these characters are and and who they are to each other. Like Peanuts is one of the first things they shot. I don't know if you guys have watched that on for this yet. But it's like that being one of the first things that they shot, it's like, okay, so they're trying to do like essentially a soap opera here, and that was their first foray into this real like emotional core of the relationship. I find that very, very interesting.

Michelle 1:39:31

We have watched Peanuts. I had no clue that was one of the first things that they ever shot. Did we talk about that in Odds and Ends?

Kit 1:39:39

No, I I know it was one of it was one of the first things that they did. Like it was in that batch of like the first three episodes. I didn't realize it was the first shot.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:48

It was one of the first things. They shot the first two and peanuts in the same like two or three day block in 2006.

Michelle 1:39:54

So that makes sense, because I feel like peanuts especially was like these are not the characters that you end the web series with. There's like something else, and like maybe it is just that they hadn't quite figured out their whole story yet because they were doing it episode to episode.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:10

Yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean, like that's a that's an emotional episode. Um and it's so fun. I'm just like, obviously, the movie, we all cried, incredibly emotional. Um, you'll see the end of season two is also quite intense uh in that regard, but I I'm so curious to leave.

Michelle 1:40:28

The end of season one felt quite intense and like, you know, yeah. Obviously, it Matt doesn't die and get thrown off a roof, but yeah. Um there was there was a minute where I was like, how are they how are they gonna get out of this? Well, they always fully bought in.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:48

They always do because it is a sitcom, but there has been so many, like, you know, in interviews, like implications that, like, oh, like, and also the end of the movie, oh my god, like, well, the status quo has changed. There's a there's information that that that Jay has that Matt doesn't. There's a huge like emotional like difference between the two characters, which is always a great place to end it on because there's momentum there. Um, the question is, how are they going to what are they gonna do? Yeah, what are they gonna do? Whatever they do, it will not be what we're expecting, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:15

No.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:15

I want them to do more sci-fi. Trope it up, groundhog day, fucking Doctor Who, fuck like just do it. The OA. Nobody's seen the OA. Please. Nobody's seen the OA, but the OA and Nirvana the Bandis show the movie to me are deeply in conversation with each other.

Michelle 1:41:31

Oh, interesting double feature.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:34

Kit, have you seen the OA? I love the OA. I mourn its cancellation every day of my life. Okay, but this idea of integration, right? Homer, when he's banging on the glass, yeah, when he remembers, I want that to happen to Matt.

Kit 1:41:46

Oh, oh my god, you're cooking. Okay, okay. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:51

I know what I'm talking about, man.

Steve 1:41:54

I thought we were gonna end up with a sheep detective situation where like one of them has to carry the weight of death while the other one doesn't even know what that is.

Michelle 1:42:01

I have not seen the sheep detectives. What the fuck is that movie about? Uh sheep detectives. This is a pro-sheep detectives podcast. So good rules. All right. Also, shockingly, a movie all about like learning how to live with grief. Wow. Not just a fun romp where sheep solve a crime, but also that.

Steve 1:42:20

There is one sheep which is the only one who can't forget drama, and he has to carry around the fact that he has seen so much death and suffering while the other ones haven't.

Michelle 1:42:30

And every other sheep can like will themselves to forget terrible things.

Steve 1:42:34

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:34

Except for this one sheep. Okay. And that and that sheep is Jay?

Steve 1:42:38

Yes. I want it. That's what see you guys want sci-fi romp.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:42

I want them to become sheep.

Steve 1:42:45

No, I just want Jay carrying or having to carry around that Matt was willing to die for him, and he probably wouldn't be willing to do the same in return.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:55

What might happen? I would be very curious to see if the fact that it was all caught on Jared's cameras plays a role. Like, I think Matt obviously has to find out because you have to have that moment of catharsis. Like, there's always gonna be like a confession. I think Nirvana the Band, the show really relies on these confession scenes. So, what that's gonna look like for the events of the movie, like, oh my god, it's because it's gonna be so huge. Or they might like when he's like, You you were with my I didn't care that you slept with my sister. Are you kidding me? It would take more than that to break up. He's like, What? We I died in an alternate timeline? All right, whatever. Sounds like something I would do. It just moves past it. Like, we don't know. We really don't know. But obviously it's affecting Jay.

Steve 1:43:35

Hear me out. Matt needs a kidney, Jay gives him one, and then Jay dies on the operating table.

unknown 1:43:41

Oh my god.

Steve 1:43:43

End of season three. Hey, Steve.

Michelle 1:43:45

Did that come from? You're writing fanfiction. I know. This is the first time I've ever done it.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:49

But listen, if you want Jay to die on the operating table and Matt to have to deal with the consequences of that, there are people that would eat that up. That's why the major character death tag exists on AF3, is because people some people love that.

Steve 1:44:00

I'm good. This would normally be sitting in my head if I didn't have a podcast with my friends. Alright, fair enough.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:05

Um, yeah, they I'm very season three probably gonna take a couple years because Matt's got so many uh big movie projects, but I know they want to do it, so it's only a matter of time.

Michelle 1:44:15

Um I think we would also be remiss to not discuss the burger jingles. Well, of course the genderless burger experience.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:24

I have something I want to say about please. Um well when I went to Toronto, one thing that surprised me is like what a queer city it is. And I don't know if it was like that in you know the peak of the web series or even in 2017, but like even compared to Ridgewood Bushwick, uh supposedly the Mecca for like trans people in the United States right now, uh Allegra stayed in the gay bood, and my my friend and I who were on the trip, both of us sort of on the border of like Butch and Trans Mask, were walking around and realizing like, oh shit, there's all of this, like these gay murals and like historical districts, and it was just like a really surprisingly queer, friendly area. And as we as we were remarking on this, like the most Nirvana-the-band thing that could have happened happened, which was like a trans bus like pulled out in front of us, and it was it's like, okay, well, time to cross to the shady side of the street because it's hot. I guess we have to use the fucking trans flag crosswalk and walk past the pharmacy called the affirming care pharmacy. It sort of gave me a weird perspective on like the trans the humor in this uh scene. I could never really tell, and I kind of like that it was on the border of like, are we being made of made fun of or is Matt actually secretly woke or something? But the fact that Toronto, I guess, is so um surprisingly tolerant despite having this kind of, I don't know, Protestant white, uh conservative background that it um made the burger the trans-inclusive burger jingle like much funnier for me.

Michelle 1:45:54

That's amazing. I th I think we have not yet been to Toronto and um I was not aware of that about Toronto, but that's that's so lovely. And like that has to have be like sort of like if that's where you live and that's the environment that you're in, and it has to be sort of subconsciously or consciously affecting how you think about the world.

Steve 1:46:15

Hey there, hungry guy. Are you a hungry guy? Or a hungry girl? Maybe you're something different.

Michelle 1:46:25

I don't even have any thoughts about the jingles other than I love them and I've been singing them to myself all week.

SPEAKER_06 1:46:30

It's one of the great Nirvana the band songs, insofar as they have songs. I like when Matt sings. He has such a charming voice. Yeah. It's like the I I keep being like on Twitter, can someone make a Matt singing compilation? And nobody's done it, so I think I have to make it myself. But it's really cute when he sings. What a treat. So good. Great episode.

Michelle 1:47:03

Great episode. Great episode. Do you think Wahlbergers used the jingle that they were given for free as a compensation for legal fees? Yeah. Copyright fees.

Steve 1:47:13

Do you think Mark Wahlberg would be caught anywhere near the reference of a queer person, let alone a jingle for his business?

Michelle 1:47:20

Do you think Mark Wahlberg is aware of Nirvana the band? Absolutely not. No, no, no. Not a chance. Do you think Donnie Wahlberg is aware? Do you think Paul Wahlberg? You're just gonna go through the whole family tree. We've reached the end of the names. That's like asking.

SPEAKER_06 1:47:41

Maybe yes. No, he's not allowed to watch it until we're done with the whole thing and it's a completed artistic statement. Then he will watch it.

Steve 1:47:50

Understand. Sending email at Matt Johnson at Zapruderfilms.com.

SPEAKER_06 1:47:55

You know, you think I haven't thought about it? You think I haven't thought about it?

Steve 1:47:59

So yeah, we we have a we will do anything except contact them directly, policy.

SPEAKER_06 1:48:05

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle 1:48:07

Um, but you know who we should can and should contact directly is a lesser Wahlberg brother. Oh, we're not to see if they'll come on the show. You want to add them to the whiteboard? Put them on.

Steve 1:48:15

No. I do no, I don't even I didn't know what to talk to a Wahlberg. One's married to Jenny McCarthy and the other one blinded a man with a hook and a bit.

Michelle 1:48:23

We should get Reed. We ooh. I would love to have Reed. I can't believe we haven't talked about putting Reed on the board. We should put Reed on the board. All right.

Steve 1:48:30

So do I. Put them on the board.

SPEAKER_06 1:48:32

Yeah. Um, because I think he would he would have insight onto how that uh that improv uh scene was shot, and I want to hear more about his his days with uh Jay at Second City.

Michelle 1:48:43

Um we've reached the end of the episode. Any any other closing thoughts about the burger?

SPEAKER_06 1:48:49

Um I choose to believe that Matt got that kiss. That's all I have to say. Maybe it was maybe it was maybe it was one time only, but I think I'd like to think that he got it.

Michelle 1:48:58

Sean, any closing thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 1:49:00

Other than um desire is the root of all suffering. But that's not a bad thing. Um suffering is a mistranslation, it's really just dissatisfaction. And that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:13

That is beautiful. But we hope that you will all be satisfied with the fans of the show episode two, which will probably be out by the time this episode drops. And episodes three, four, and five are forthcoming at a later date.

Michelle 1:49:25

I can't wait. I was gonna ask if you had anything to plug. Yes, just put it on the show.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:29

Watch our show. And if you uh listen, if you w if you want to show it to Matt, like, okay, alright. I I'm not gonna do it. Uh and in fact, maybe I don't think that he should watch it, but I'm I will not be mad if someone decides to put it in front of him.

Kit 1:49:44

Obviously not. If someone wanted to watch The Fans the Show, where would they go to watch it?

SPEAKER_06 1:49:49

The fans the dot show. All in there. We've got a we've got our episodes, our trailers, we've even got a syllabus of books, movies, shows, plays, etc. That we uh a recommended reading for engaging with the text of our of our content. You should plug your book. Oh, I have a book coming out next year, but I don't have a pre-order link or even a title or anything, man. I got a website, uh, legrosenberg.com.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:13

Um I'm Seanworldnomercy.com. And I have a play at the end of August, actually, if you're in New York City, called Half World. It's also about fandom and online culture and um friendships that arise in fandom and parasocial relationships. So lock in.

Michelle 1:50:28

The themes, the themes, the themes, the themes incredible. Um Kit, Steve, any final thoughts to share? Gay should have ever seen.

Steve 1:50:38

Uh Nirvana the band, the show, the podcast.

Michelle 1:50:43

Um we'll end the show, like we end every episode.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:47

Um it still feels like oh Canada.

Michelle 1:50:53

It really does. Right, right, right. But um, nothing like a good feeling. Nothing like a good feeling.

Steve 1:51:04

Nothing like a good feeling.

Michelle 1:51:06

Nothing like a good feeling.

Steve 1:51:07

There's nothing like a good feeling.

Michelle 1:51:10

There really isn't. Um, thank you so much. This was such a blast. Yeah, thank you. Thank you guys. Thank you. I'll see you next time.

Steve 1:51:19

Bye. Thank you for listening to Nirvana the band The Show the Podcast. We'd love to hear from you. You can email us or send a voice memo to NirvanaThepod at gmail.com. And we're also on Blue Sky and Instagram at NirvanaThePod. Our website is nirvana the pod.com. Our show is edited by Kit with additional help by John. Special thanks to Anne Meadows for our logo. Oh, and Matt and Jay, if you're listening, we'd love to have you on the show.