Nirvanna The Band The Show The Podcast
A show where we deep dive into every episode of Nirvanna The Band The Show in an attempt to book Matt Johnson and Jay McCarrol as guests.
Nirvanna The Band The Show The Podcast
Viceland S02E02: The Boost with Luca Tarantini
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It’s time for a video game day! Nirvanna the Band the Show’s own Luca Tarantini joins us for a four-player discussion of The Boost. Other topics include: how an episode of NTBTS gets made, Luca’s creative process, Steve’s Scam Corner, and being the best at Shaq Fu.
Get Luca's NTBTS photobook here!
Email: nirvannathepod@gmail.com
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Voice memos: www.speakpipe.com/nirvannathepod
From the Telps Tide Broadcasting from Rodina Seth 2 in Canada, and you are listening to Nirvana the Band, the Show, the Podcast, the podcast all about Nirvana the Band the Show with Kit, Michelle, and Steve.
SteveWelcome to a Slappers only episode of Nirvana the Band, The Show, The Podcast. A podcast where we talk about Nirvana the Band the show in an attempt to get Matt and Jay to come on. And Kit's giving me a weird face. You can get that joke, Kit? No. Are you not a Goldeneye player?
KitYou've never played Slappers Only Golden. I didn't Okay, sorry.
SteveAnyway, I'm Steve, and these are my co-hosts. I'm Michelle, and I'm Kit. So we didn't have any homework from last episode, so I'm gonna jump right into the whiteboard, okay?
KitI'm ready.
SteveSounds good. All right. So have we heard from Matt and Jay?
KitNot yet.
MichelleSadly no. My lack of outreach has gone unanswered. Shocking everyone.
SteveWhat about your constant outreach to Werner Herzog?
MichelleUh my constant and nebulous outreach to Werner Herzog is I think going well, but I don't expect to see results for at least six months.
KitHave you made him a tiny little trophy yet? No, I should get back on that. I think that'll help.
SteveHave you informed him that John Waters is gay? Something he only found out a few years ago.
MichelleWell, it sounds like he already knows, so I don't need to let him know. I'll see if I can find someone else to inform him about.
SteveGang, I think it's time we take the Canadian arm of the International Space Station off the guest list.
KitWhy?
SteveI tried. They won't cut back to us. Should we leave it in hope?
KitI I I want to believe in the Canada arm.
SteveOkay.
MichelleIt is maybe tough to have them on a podcast, I'm realizing, because they have no mouth and they must scream. They must scream silently into space.
SteveYou know, Wally was a hit film nominated for Best Picture, and that fucker just went WALLI.
KitThat's true. So what do you think the Canada arm says?
SteveCanada arm.
unknownPerfect.
SteveOkay. Uh Jay's dad? Michelle, your boyfriend, true love?
KitNo.
SteveUh Jared. Have you heard back from Jared Kit?
KitJared?
SteveYeah.
KitNo, I haven't. Okay.
SteveUm, has anyone heard from multidisciplinary filmmaker Nirvana the Band, the show creative team member and creator of Nirvana the Band the Photo Book, Luca Tarantini? Maybe. Oh fuck, he's here. Oh shit. Hi.
SPEAKER_01Hi guys.
SteveThanks for sitting through this stupid bit and for coming on the show.
SPEAKER_01Can't believe you put me below the Canadarm.
SteveListen, we walk you actually are number three on the actual whiteboard. The Canadarm is above us all, I think.
MichelleTechnically acts.
SPEAKER_01I mean, the things that thing is CNA out there in space. But also wouldn't really be able to talk about it, but just be saying Canadarm.
MichelleYeah. You know.
SteveI did actually reach out to the Canadian Space Agency uh pretending to be uh uh my son really wanting to speak to uh people who made the canada.
SPEAKER_01Pretending to be your son? How old is your son? Did you write in like a faked like six-year-old like hi?
SteveI'm writing on behalf of my son. He would like to. Well, he's obsessed with the International Space Station.
SPEAKER_01Did you ask your son's permission before using his voice in an email?
SteveMy fictional son, I did not. Did you you have a real child? Did you make a birthday about a second fake child? I'm not going to use my real child's identity.
KitWhat's the fake child's identity? Did they have a name? A backstory?
SteveIn my head, yes, but no in the email.
SPEAKER_01Why didn't you use your real child as your fake child?
SteveI don't want them to find out like, hey, dad's trying to scam international offices for their podcast.
SPEAKER_01It's a pretty cool uh I don't know, it's a pretty cool father-son or father-child activity.
SteveIt did work, uh, as I told Kent and Michelle when I wrote to Bush's Baked Beans about their mascot a dog, and I got a whole bunch of free swag back when I was in college.
SPEAKER_01That's true. Sometimes these places are just looking for reasons to give shit away. When I was like I was like 10 years old and I was obsessed with Beyblades, and my dad just wrote to uh I don't know who made Beyblade Mattel or something. And I I held like a Beyblade tournament at my school for my friends, and he told them I was running this tournament, and we got like a cardboard box full of t-shirts and free merch and shit to give away. Right. They just they just need a reason to give shit away. It's worth reaching out.
SteveOh, yeah. When I worked for a college radio station, uh I wrote to Fox and was like, hey, I really like Arrested Development. Uh like and I sent it on the radio station's like letterhead. I don't know why I did this. And they just sent me like 20 copies of the second season on DVD. Wow.
SPEAKER_01Overstalk.
SteveThat sounds like they had a closet that they were trying to clear out. Yeah. They just mailed it to me and I was like, oh, cool. I guess this is a giveaway. Nobody watches this.
SPEAKER_0119 copies went on eBay.
SteveActually, for a while, you could return things to Best Buy. This is Steve's scam corner. Um every episode. When I was a college music and entertainment journalist, like if I got review copies of things I didn't want to review, you could return them to Best Buy, and Best Buy would price them like obscenely high. So in case something accidentally got on the shelf, nobody would buy it. So like a random skateboard DVD would come up like $95.
SPEAKER_06Wait, what?
SteveYes. So I would get, say, a review copy of some random, like greatest skateboard hits from like some skateboarder. And if you brought it to Best Buy and I was like, hi, I got this as a gift, I don't want it, can I return it? And they'd ring it up, it would come up like 95 bucks as the cost and they'd give you store credit. And then that's amazing. One day I tried to do this scam, continuing continuing to do it. And they were like, You're not allowed to return anymore. You got banned. Because you specifically me specifically did it so many times that I was banned from returning to Best like returning items to Best Buy without a receipt.
SPEAKER_01They spend too much money on your bullshit DVDs.
SteveYep. And then the guy told me, he's like, Yeah, before something comes out, if we have like if it's in our system but not supposed to be on the shelves, it's marked like exponentially more valuable. So in case somebody puts it out and someone goes to buy it, it's gonna deter them from buying it.
SPEAKER_01So then why would they even like have it in stock if they didn't wanna it's so interesting. I really want to understand how that works.
SteveI was baffled by it, but I did get, you know, $95 in store credit. I got a TV in my apartment based on the internet.
SPEAKER_01Did you discover this on yourself or did you like read this on Reddit or something?
SteveNo, this was just uh pure me, baby. This was 2004, I think.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yeah. I remember I was so proud when I learned how to steal drinks from vending machines back in like 2004. The ones that were you would order a drink and a conveyor belt would go up and kind of meet the drink, and the drink would come out and it would come down and give you the drink out of the conveyor belt. But I figured out that if you block where the drink comes out in to be dispensed in the bottom, then it tries to send the drink out, but it doesn't register that anything was served to you, so it thinks it was out of stock. And the drink just stays there on the conveyor belt, and you could order three or four drinks, get refunded every time. The fifth drink, you let them all come out and you take them really quick so they don't jam up.
SPEAKER_06Brilliant.
SPEAKER_01I don't know if I made that up or if a friend told me, but we were chased out of uh the community center in Woodbridge one time, and uh I I didn't go back for years.
SteveI love scam corner. This is the best. Do you have any scams for scam corner where we're all being very honest this evening?
KitTrying to remember if I had any, but none are none are coming to mind at the moment.
SPEAKER_01They're too good. They're they're too they're too we have too many good members of society. Me and Steve are the only ones full of scams.
SteveYeah, Luke and I are over here in the dirtback corner, you two look great.
MichelleI mean yours were just so much more creative. I think I just like shoplifted some nail polish for the CVS, and that's not exciting. That might get you killed now. Well, they put it behind all the plexiglass. Can't tell you. I don't think I've ever met I don't think I've ever met a female friend who hadn't stolen nail polish from like the pharmacy or like I think it's a rite of passage for when you turn 14, there's something inside you, maybe like chemically, that says I need to go acquire nail polish, and nail polish is too expensive, so I will put it in my purse and leave.
SteveThe five below in my old neighborhood uh stopped allowing self-checkout because the amount of things that myself and other members of my family, who well I will not incriminate on this gall shop lipted.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's your whole family, Steve?
SteveA long line.
SPEAKER_01A long line.
SteveI'm I'm Italian from New York City. There's gotta be criminals there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, my I feel like my parents basically taught me how to do crime. My mom's Sicilian and my dad's Italian as well. And uh Sicilian. Hell yeah, dude. Yeah, you know, you know.
SteveI took Michelle, uh Michelle, I took Kit to a uh convention called PisonCon, which was an Italian iconic.
KitYou have to go. You have to go every year in New Jersey.
SPEAKER_01Oh, in New Jersey Please come down.
KitPlease do have the mode of PisonCon.
SPEAKER_01I don't know if I would like New Jersey Italians. I'll go with you guys, but um Okay. Yeah, okay, I'll go with you guys.
SteveTickets on us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SteveUm but all of this lunacy aside, thank you so much for coming on. Um, but we wanted to ask a little bit about Nirvana the Band, the show, and your experience with it. So I'll start with the obvious one. Like, how did you get involved?
SPEAKER_01I got involved with Nirvana the Band as a very young man, and by a very young man, I was 24. So that's not so. I was um I was a film student, um, and when I was at York University in Toronto for film, a friend of mine uh turned me on to the web series, and I watched a bunch of episodes, and I feel like at the time I didn't even really like it that much. I was just like, oh, these guys are weird. I guess this is what Toronto people are like. Because I grew up like in the suburbs. I was like from just outside of Toronto, and didn't really even go to Toronto that much. And then a couple years pass, and on like a pirate streaming site, I watched the dirties, and uh I had no idea what it was, it was a blind click, which is so crazy because if you if you know these sites, they have like huge movies and they just have kind of like and small movies and kind of anything. So it was like it was literally like a a lottery ball coming out of the rolling tumbler thing, and it was the dirties. And I watched it and I recognized Matt from Nirvana the Band, and I loved the dirties to death. It was like the my the greatest thing I'd ever seen in my life. And I was like, oh my god, these guys must be in Toronto because Nirvana the Band was in Toronto. And at this point, I had basically just finished film school. I my majors were documentary and cinematography. So I'm watching this The Dirties and it's it's shot like a documentary film, and comes from this kind of like world of being like a a boy kind of in the suburbs that I just kind of connected with. It just it just all made sense. So I finished film school. The day I finished film school, we go to like this Canadian Screen Awards party, which uh that's like our version of the Oscars, but about one one thousandth of the size. And I'm there with a bunch of my film student friends, and guess who's at the bar? Matt Johnson's at the bar alone. And I see him, I'm like, dude, I just watched the dirties, it's freaking awesome. Can I like I'd love to work on whatever you guys are doing next. And he was like, Oh yeah, okay, cool. I gave him my card. It was like this little handmade card on like a blank white piece of paper. I wrote my name on it.
MichelleIncredible.
SPEAKER_01And about he's and then he leaves the bar. And I realized later, only years later, how actually rare that was because Matt doesn't go to bars. Like he doesn't drink, he doesn't it was so weird that that had even happened. Ten minutes after he leaves, he emails me, probably like on the streetcar ride home, saying, like, oh, you ordered an Nirvana the Band series DVD. Come pick it up at uh at our office. And I had just two weeks earlier, like ordered the Web Series DVD. And I go to the office and it's Matt, Jared, Matt Miller, and I think Andy, and they're planning Operation Avalanche. They're talking about how they're gonna shoot it, what kind of cameras they're gonna use. I remember they were talking about they wanted to shoot it on like red cameras, but to kind of wrap them in like a camera body that would look like a 1960s film camera so that they could still like get each other on camera and not have it break time period. They didn't end up doing that, but I just like kind of instantly knew like whatever these guys are doing, I have to be a part of it. And I just kind of threw myself at them. Like it started kind of with uh being a camera assistant on Operation Avalanche because I had a camera background. I was really good, like I was smart, I knew my stuff, and like I was just like very like on, like always paying attention, always looking for ways to help. And then I ended up working on a bunch of music videos with Jared because Jared did and still kind of does make incredible music videos. In fact, long before I met him, I loved a video he did for Born Ruffians called What to Say that's all filmed like on a oscilloscope. And Jared had found a way to convert video that he shot on a video camera into audio signal that would render on an oscilloscope. He found a guy to like code that custom for him. And he it's the coolest video. I remember watching it being like, This is like I wish I made this music video. And so I worked with Jared on a lot of stuff. This was like 2014, 2015. We hear that um they're gonna start shooting Nirvana, they're gonna do Nirvana the Band again, like a reboot of the of the web show. And I remember the first time I heard this, I was at Jay McCarroll's house. The day I met Jay McCarroll, actually, we were shooting um stuff for his band. Me and Jared were shooting stuff uh the series called Half-Life that we did in like 2015, I think, the first series of it. And uh Jay, Jay turns to his sister and he's like, So I got a call today from Matt. And she's like, Oh yeah? And he goes, Yeah, Matt wants to like do Nirvana the band again. And she goes, Really? And he goes, Yeah, and he wants to like move into my apartment and like shoot it here. And she was like, What? And that didn't end up happening. They ended up getting that beautiful Shaw house on Shaw Street, but that was the first that I heard of it. And then I I told Jared, I was like, dude, I need to shoot Nirvana the band with you. I don't know how it's gonna happen, but I just gotta be working on that with you guys. And he was like, Yeah, you'll be shooting on it for sure. We're gonna shoot it with with Andy, who shot Avalanche with them. Um, and uh and I did. I I helped out, I did like a lot of like third camera stuff. Um, so like in the Star Wars episode, I'm at the back of the theater, like cam ripping uh the premiere of Star Wars Force Unleashed or whatever it was.
KitHell yeah.
SPEAKER_01I s I filmed like literally, I think, the first half hour of that movie from the back of the theater. That's how like uh that's incredible. And um yeah, the Santa Claus parade stuff, stuff like that. And then season two, Andy went full-time editing, and I went as second camera. And so that basically starts at the boost was like the first episode that I got to see from beginning to end. Because before that, I had seen I would see like a rough cut of something, like um, like the bean, and they'd be like, Okay, Luca, watch the rough cut, and today we're gonna go out and like reshoot this scene. And I would go like reshoot that part with Jared. So I would be doing like a lot of reshoots for season one, which still like they make the show, like the reshoots are what gets cut in, but I hadn't seen the process of like writing, prepping, stuff like that. I would always kind of be on the end. But the boost was the first episode I was part of from like day one, which is cool.
MichelleWe were in in the episode with Star Wars, we were having a conversation about like how much of that was genuinely shot in the theater. And it is I I don't think I ever would have guessed that like genuinely you were back there filming the screen for 30 minutes. Yeah. Um, and I love that.
SPEAKER_01That's how much we get away with in Canada, I guess. Nobody said anything to me the whole time. You would think I would be like, like I started off very sneaky. I went in with my backpack, tried to make it look like I didn't have anything. I go get set up at the back. By the end, I'm basically just standing up full height, just holding the camera in like dead center on screen in the back back row behind everyone. But the people in front of me who were seated would turn back to me and be like, What is this guy doing? But didn't say anything. Just let me cam the premiere. That's not what happens when you see those on the Pirate Bay. It's like just somebody at the back that no one said anything to.
SteveYeah. It's incredible because like I, you know, now it would people be like fucking Steven Soderberg on an iPhone filming a theater, but you just setting there with a whole ass camera is incredibly funny to me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Sony A7S with a with a zoom lens.
SteveRespect to everybody involved. You filming and the people who are like, I don't want to make a scene, I'm here for Star Wars.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right, exactly. They did the right thing by just minding their own business, respectfully. And um, even if they said something, I would have been like, oh sorry, sorry, I'm just um I'll be gone in a second. You you you come up with a few kind of go-to things you say when people kind of um ask you why you're filming them.
SteveThat was something I, you know, I was thinking of asking, but since you open the door, I'm gonna walk right through it. Like, when you guys get caught by somebody filming, right? Like, do you just like politely make your way out?
SPEAKER_01Well, when we get I mean, we we have a bit of a routine that's that we we get them, we give them the runaround a little bit, usually. Like if somebody comes up to me or Jared, which they usually will because we're the ones with the camera, and they they don't know who else to talk to when they see a camera. They're like, they don't know Matt and Jay are the stars of the show because they blend right in, sort of. Um, so they'll come to me and Jared, and we'll kind of like continue shooting as though like we don't feel like it's a big deal. Like we are almost acting like we have permission to do this, and we just say, like, oh, sorry, what was your name? And just kind of like still film. And then they'll and then eventually, when they're like, Do you have permission to be here? We'll be like, I'm I was just asked to shoot this. You have to talk to and I'll try to find like Matt Grayson, our producer, and I'll be like, talk to Grayson. And that buys us another couple minutes because Grayson will explain something. I don't know what he says, but he's a he's a he's a magician. And uh usually we get everything we need him to finish the scene. If we really do get kicked out, then it'll be Grayson that kind of like walks in and be like, okay, Matt, Jay, let's wrap this up and uh and head out. But until then, you just keep going. You just have to keep going. I'm not I'm never making a call to cut. In fact, I I roll between quote unquote takes. Like I'm just rolling all the time because you never know what gets used. Even when when we get approached, it gets used, like in the Star Wars episode. That really is the the the woman approaching them after she had talked to Andy and talked to Jared, and then she goes to talk to Man Jay in the middle of the scene and they use it in the episode. So, like, yeah, you never know what gets used.
MichelleDo you have any favorite like happy accident shots, like things that you never would have expected to be like caught or like someone interacting with you or with Matt and Jay? Just like things that surprise you that are that became integral parts of the show or the movie.
SPEAKER_01Things that are like kind of out in the wild and like unexpected. Um you never know what kind of reaction you're gonna you're gonna get from someone. And when it turns out to be better than you could imagine, that's such a great feeling. Like, I mean, I just watched the boost again to prepare for this episode, and when he's talking to the guy on the street who uh is like the recovered meth addict who's trying to help Matt out, that guy was so real and so amazing and gave Matt everything he needed for that scene, including the flashback where he says overamp and die. Um that kind of stuff is amazing. Other than that, like sometimes I mean for me, the the magic kind of comes when I find um a bit of like real-time cinematography that speaks to the scene and like kind of like something that you wish you had planned, but you kind of just found it in the moment. And and it was almost like better than what you would have planned. Like um at the end of the last episode uh of season two, Matt's standing on the roof and he's watching Jay go down the ladder. I'm spoiling too much for this is like wrong, we're only in season two episodes.
SteveIt's all good. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, it's a shot of Matt kind of holding his hat and the sun is setting in front of him, and it just holds on that shot the whole credits. And the hat had become such a signifier of like Matt having this lie and having to hide things behind Jay's back, and then it becomes the kind of star of this beautiful moment that you could you could have like storyboarded it and been like, this is gonna be the last shot of the of the series, and it just happened. And then when you find it, you have to like realize what's happening and clock it and amplify it a little bit, or just kind of like let it be. But that's like where my background of like documentary and cinematography that's what I've always loved about shooting is not so much the planning, but like execution and just always looking and always being aware and kind of like painting the frame in real time, you know?
SPEAKER_06Mm-hmm.
SteveThat's so beautiful. And I always love when you guys choose to leave in like a background person. That's like kind of interesting. We we were talking a couple of weeks ago when we were talking about the booking. There's this one woman that is like standing behind Jay and waiting for whoever's filming it is to finish the shot because she doesn't want to ruin the shot, but then is like, I can't wait anymore, and walks through. And I think it's so awesome that people like that get left in because it's it adds like this extra level to the reality of everything.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it kind of I love that. It kind of uh like when we see that, that's something that like Kurt would find or one of the editors would find and like leave in purposefully. And in a review screening, we'd watch it and like just laugh. Hysterically, because it's so funny that it's one of these examples of Matt and Jay being unaware of how they actually are kind of inconveniencing the rest of the world by what they're doing. Even if it just is an innocent inconvenience, it it is happening. And so like someone being like, Are you guys done filming yet? No? Okay, I just gotta I gotta just gotta go. And like kind of like look right into the camera. That stuff gets left sometimes.
MichelleI mean, I think I love seeing that in part because it adds to this like thing that's so magical about the show, about the movie, where it's really hard to tell what is planned and scripted and what's not, because like so many of the Man on the Street interactions are just so much weirder than you would ever expect them to be. And it adds to this thing that I love where I'm sort of constantly wavering between wanting to know what you have planned behind the scenes and what's just sort of these beautiful happy accidents.
SPEAKER_01It's all an accident. Like everybody is so real, and in fact, the few times when we plant somebody, it's very rare and it's very minimal. It's just to get like a very specific plot point nailed down. In fact, I can't even think of a like a solid example besides um the improv teacher in uh The Burger, who is a good old friend of Jay's. I mean, you'll see on the Blu-ray, I don't know, this might be out before the Blu-ray comes out, I don't know, or after. But there's a scene of them implanting uh how to get the Sears guy to say Sears in the library. And how how they how they how they psyop him into saying Sears.
SteveI I've I've wanted so badly to know the answer to that, so that makes me very happy.
SPEAKER_01It's so good, man. I mean, and that's just like exemplary of so much. Like, once you see that scene, you'll know how they do it all these other times. Uh, even you could have imagined it already. Like it's very simple, but it's just to see it in action in its entirety is very cool.
SteveYou know, I usually watch the episodes three times before we record, once to do like a plot synopsis, once to just like take it in, and then another time to get way too emotionally attached to whatever's happening to Matt and Jay in that moment. And by the time I get to the third one, occasionally I'll notice the editing trick, like in the Star Wars one, where like the bar in the IMAX theater like slightly obscures Jay's mouth. Or like the 3D printing the gun, like the way that it cuts. And it makes me appreciate it so much more because the craft that you guys do is just so seamless.
SPEAKER_01I know. It's a it's a miracle.
SteveIt's in it's amazing.
SPEAKER_01That's something that is part of the magic of this team that we it's like we literally are doing magic. It's like sleight of hand. And that's the editor Kurt, it's Jared. Jared's like naturally so incredibly good at matching one shot for another that are shot in totally different times and places, and just breaking down like, okay, what's the minimum we need in this shot to sell it for this other location? And it's just you're yeah, there's stuff on the DVD you'll see shooting in the Mandarin. That's all I'll say for now.
MichelleBut I'm so excited. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's magic, man. And even like the way the scripts come together, because I I today actually I dug up the original script for the boost, and it's like so different than what we ended up with. And but elements of what we shot that we really loved and really worked from the first version of the script became cornerstones of what we built the second and final version of the episode on, which wouldn't have even been a like the revision never even went to script. It would have been Kurt in the edit making like big text slugs in Premiere, saying like, okay, at this point Matt does this, Jay does this, and then they go back to the whatever. So it never even gets back to the page. Once it's like it goes from a rough, shitty script to premiere with a bunch of text files in it.
MichelleWhen you see script, what does a script for this show look like? Is it just like sort of we go here and like we do this? Or do are there ever like specific lines planned? It seems so off the cuff, but I don't know if that's just sort of being sold on the magic.
SPEAKER_01It's uh all the dialogue is off the cuff. If there are specific lines, it would have been something that while they were like in the writer's room, somebody said something that just became like for whatever reason stuck in everyone's head, so they just put that in the script and they try to use it. But dialogue is entirely improvised. The script is basically like blocks of like kind of like story intent and action intent, but nothing specific. So it'd be like, um, oh, I'll tell you about the boost, I guess. In the script, it's Matt and Jay are in the living room, they're writing a guide to play Goldeneye. They want to write their like a game FAQ to play Goldeneye, and that's basically the scene. And they're figuring out Goldeneye, trying to remember it. And then they go to A and C games and they try to sell their game facts script uh playthrough to A and C games. And the script isn't much more than that, and then it'll it'll go like beat by beat of what happens next, and then this happens, but this happens, therefore this happens, like that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um and it just outlines like how you get from A to Z. But what the content of this of the scenes are entirely like on the spot. And then there's always like the backwards work of like, okay, Matt did something awesome in one of the last scenes, now we have to implant that into an earlier scene, and that goes into reshoots. And then it's this circular, it's this kind of circular writing where you write, shoot, go back to shoot more, uh, go back to shoot later, and like all this kind of stuff that it just churns. It's like a rock tumbler, and at the end this polished thing comes out, but it started as a bunch of bunch of crap.
SteveThat's such a good way of looking at it. Just garbage, just throw it around a bunch, and then we get, you know.
SPEAKER_01Garbage in, garbage out is what my mother always said. And here we are.
SteveMy theory has always kind of been like because this stuff is so off the cuff, the emotional beats tend to land bigger because they're not thought out and overly scripted. And it seems from what you're sharing that, like, yeah, this stuff just kind of comes up while they're while they're doing it. And I think it allows those like desperate mat scenes to feel so much more real because he's responding to like Jay in that very moment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And them finding chemistry in real life will always be better than any kind of chemistry you could write down. Like, really, all you could write down are very like coarse ideas about the flow of a story, or just like things like ideas about getting them to do things together. But then what they do and how they do them is really just them and their chemistry and what they come up with in the moment.
SteveThat's awesome. I wanted to ask, like, you guys clearly have like a really good, you know, working relationship. So what was it like getting back together after several years to do the movie, especially with everything about it like being filmed and being scrapped and redone? Like, what was that like for you, that whole process?
SPEAKER_01For me, I well, we you say get back together, but we were never really like apart. Okay. Like we were all we all did BlackBerry together. Um we did the animated show during COVID, Mad and Bird Break Loose. Um we see each other all the time. So it was like it wasn't so much getting back together, but it was like finding the sort of chemistry, that specific chemistry that happens in front of these specific cameras. Like that I think took a while.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_01For the movie, I actually wasn't involved in the first bit of the road trip. I was finishing off a really big documentary project that I couldn't get out of it. Like it was near the end, I just had to finish it. So they kind of just started and it kind of went off. And it from what I hear, like it did take a while to get like the chemistry back and stuff like that. Um and then even during the feature, I guess I kind of felt it a little bit. But then once it's working, it's working like even better than it ever was. And it's kind of like amazing. Like I even watched, I I watched when I watched the Vice series now, and I the movie was always so much fresher in my mind because we just finished it. But the Vice series almost in a way feels a lot like the movie, but uh a little bit more like it's like a prototype. The NTB movie is um so much more fleshed out in terms of their performances and their chemistry and the the sense of storytelling and like what we pull off that it came back. I think it took a while to kind of warm up, but once it warmed up, it got like really hot and fresh. Like a beautiful um bread.
MichelleI mean, I I think that's something that's also really fun in going through the web series and then coming back to Vice, which is so much later, and then the movie years after that, is to see how much of this show so far is like iterating on the same ideas and the same jokes and the same storylines, but doing it in like bigger and different ways and more interesting ways. But knowing that it's this group of people that like you've all been working together for so long and have sort of built this very interesting engine is is so cool to watch. I like the word engine. That's a good word for it. See how you come at the same idea in a different way is is really fun as someone who's experiencing it all for the first time.
SPEAKER_01What do you mean come at an idea in what do you mean?
MichelleWhen we were recording the blind side, we spent a long time talking about how that one is so similar to a web series episode, um, the other one where Matt goes blind, and to like see where there are jokes that are the same and where there are sort of plot points that are the same, but they've changed a little bit over the years, and some of them have sort of gotten bigger or or just like go in a different direction. And I think that's so cool to watch is just like if you're coming back to something a decade later, how would you do it differently with everything that you've acquired in the decades since you first did it?
SPEAKER_01No, exactly. It's like um, I mean, I don't know why I'm making so many like rock references, but it's like if you're filtering, like you have a sieve and you're and you're panning for gold or something. Yeah. Or just like like all the small, kind of insignificant stuff falls out, but you're left with these like salient ideas, and often it these things kind of last in our minds as like memories, and we'll bring them up to each other, and then somebody will and then we'll all start laughing. And the the things that kind of keep popping up and keep being mentioned, they become these like like they take on a shape in our psyches, and that's why they come back in episodes or in m the movie, because it's like it's so funny that these things repeat themselves, and it's the when the best things repeat themselves, that's the best. And obviously there are things in the in the web series that have been filtered out and are kind of lost and won't be a part of future stuff, but the good stuff is like what gets built on and and stays.
SteveYeah. When we did our episode on the bean, we were talking actually about that general concept a little bit, about how that episode kind of plays with memory, right? And like the bad stuff drops away, and the things that are the strongest to you are the really good, really memorable, really fun, and like important stuff. And I I I my read on that whole episode is that's what that is about in a lot of ways. Like, you know, how imperfect memory is and how we kind of cherry pick these certain things and we warp them to make a new story. And you know, that sounds a bit like how some of these episodes came about, and I think that's really beautiful.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's how episodes evolve. They evolve as like they start off as a dream, and then watching the first cut of it is like someone trying to explain the dream, but they're telling it badly.
MichelleThe only way to tell someone about a dream badly.
SPEAKER_01And so then it's our job to like I mean, I I think Jay has said this in the past. I don't know if he said it it publicly or if it's something that we just say, but like putting an an episode together or putting a story together feels like we're all remembering a dream together. And then someone will be like, oh yeah, that's what happened. And like, oh yeah, and then that happened. But if we're making like we're coming up with new stuff, but it's like it feels just right, and it feels like we're all remembering it together, which is kind of what it feels like when something's working. Yeah. So it's funny you say that.
SteveIt's really wonderful to find a group of people that just gel together that well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, and a lot of great films are made by people that don't necessarily get along. Like you don't really have to. I guess it's really important that the core creators can do something together special, but they don't always get along. They're not always friends, and they don't always need to be, but then it's really up to the director to be kind of this like like monumental force of like the vision of the whole thing, which actually is never really true. Like, it's always a contribution of everyone else, and the director's almost like propped up and kept from collapsing by it. But yeah, with us, it's like a very distributed system, I guess. Obviously, Matt is like the central force in a lot of this stuff in terms of like like our best spokesperson for it, I guess. And also just his ideas are incredible and his like taste and recognition for when something is gonna work or not work, even if it's not always right. But he, if a lot of us are feeling like we're not sure if we should or shouldn't do something, Matt can always say yes or no and and explain to us why. And we're like, oh yeah, that makes perfect sense. We should or shouldn't do this. He trusts everyone else enough that any one of us can make a case and do all the time. And he's like looking for better ideas than his all the time. He's not like a That's great. Yeah, and it's it's like a really, really cool way to work. You can't go in a lot of like sets, quote unquote, where the director is looking for everyone else's good ideas. I mean, like they should be, um, but they're maybe not used to it or they're insecure, I don't know what, but it's a lot of fun.
SteveOne of the reasons like we were so excited to have you on was, or at least I was excited to have you on, is it is really clear to me in watching the movie especially that doesn't work unless everybody is bringing something. You don't get that back in time sequence without editors that are helping run the show. You don't get a lot of those shots without like you and Jared and everything you were bringing to it. And and one of the reasons I was so excited was to hear your perspective because people do talk about this through the lens of Matt and Jay, and they're clearly only just like a chunk of it.
SPEAKER_01They're they're yeah, they're a chunk. They're some of the biggest chunks, but they're there's a lot of there's a lot of chunks in this soup.
SteveFor me, it's inspiring. One of the reasons we started the show was like the three of us wanting being kind of inspired by the movie and wanting to do something that kept us connected and getting on a Zoom call for a couple hours a week. And that comes through in the movie, it comes through in the show, like the real friendships or the real collaborations, even if they're like a rough one. And it's part of what inspired us to do this was just like, hey, I don't get to see my friends Kit and Michelle that much, but now I know I'm gonna see them once a week, and that's great.
SPEAKER_01That's so cool. I love being a part of anything that gets people creating things. Like for me, that's what I become like a huge fan of, and the things that I love and like hold so close to my heart is anything that I've seen or heard or read that made me want to make things. Like that's like the most special kind of engagement you could have with art, I think.
SteveOh, 100% agree. It's why I walked out of the movie feeling like really inspired to do a thing. I didn't know what that thing was, but I was like, I'm gonna do something.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome, dude. Yeah, you just had like it makes you wanna take action. And like a lot of fans do like fan art and fan fiction and stuff like that. And um, it's cool to see. It's very it's very flattering that it even exists because I remember when we were making like the Vice show. I think between us we knew maybe like 20 people that were watching this on TV.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_01And it really took on a life of its own, kind of like v virally, not with a capital V, but just in the way that like it spreads person to person in l in little ways. Everyone's introduced to it by another person, usually.
SteveI don't know if you did this. In the early days of DVD, late era of VHS, there were like web forums where people would just mail each other shit, like VHS tapes and like DVDs of like random movies and TV shows and specials and just ephemera. And I feel like if Nirvana the Band, the show, like the Vice Land series, had been out in that time, it's something that a random dude from like the UK would send me on uh fucking thumb drive.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SteveAnd it has that viral thing. Like, that's how that's how I saw Shawn of the Dead a year before it came out in America. Because someone's like, This thing's great. Here's a DVD, and I was like, Cool.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. I never did that. I would have loved to be a part of that though. I was like just a bit too young, but yeah, I was like, my mom was like, What is you getting?
SteveWhat are you getting in the mail now? And I was like, Stuff from a friend from school.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I'm gonna go watch it alone in my room. Don't listen to what's coming through the door.
SteveIt's fucking faster, pussycat kill, kill like that.
SPEAKER_01I was gonna say my version of that was just like early internet stuff, but it wouldn't even really be that because I was kind of discovering that stuff alone. Actually, that's not true. I I remember like grade seven, eight, me and my friends would go home from school every day and just hang out on the internet together around my my computer in my basement. And we'd just like be on Newgrounds or Ebom's world, just like clicking whatever was just put on that day. Yep. Playing every flash game, watching Homestar Runner, um just kind of like just devouring the internet in these like three or four places that we loved.
SteveAnd I think you guys created the modern version of like that vibe of sharing something. It's a little bit of a secret.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, maybe to its greatest strength, the show is almost unmarketable. Um because you can't explain what it is. It wouldn't even work. If you try, they just ask you if it's about Nirvana. Um so you just have to say you just have to watch it. And I think that's how most people see it, and I think that's the best way.
SteveUm before we talk about the episode, Luca, I was wondering like if you could tell us a little bit more about like your work outside of Nirvana the Band, because you are a whole ass creative knitting the show.
SPEAKER_01I'm a whole ass creative knot. I'll try to cut that Gordian knot for you right now.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so like I studied cinematography and documentary, but I think really deep down I just like creating in visual ways and also just kind of just creating experiences in general, to put it the most broadly that I can. Like before I went into film school, I applied to game design. Um I kind of applied at the same time, and I got into both, and I chose film instead. So I've always fiddled around with other stuff. Like I have a close connection with animation because my dad was an animator in uh in the 80s and the 90s. Like they did a lot of kids' shows, they were called Nelvana. They did like Rupert the Bear, they did uh Magic School Bus, they did Care Bears. Oh wow. They did um some early like Star Wars spin-off cartoons for kids. He would bring home um like animatics on VHS with time code, and I would watch that as like my Saturday morning cartoons. I'd make it so cool. I'd pop those in with like voice acting with what with Nat pause, which means there's a two-second pause between every line because it's made to be like edited with, and I would watch these like it was just some interesting artifact of like a kid's show. I knew it wasn't finished, but it was just interesting to me. I always from an early age knew that if you're watching something that's been created, there was a process in creating it, and you can like there's a lot of steps to that. And my dad would like take out like the VHS camera, and we would like make all my student projects when I was a kid, we'd film them with my friends and then show them at class on VHS tape. So like making something, editing something, and showing to my friends has been a part of my life since I was six, and it kind of never went away. And so I always knew I kind of wanted to do film.
MichelleDo you remember any of the projects that you made with your dad or with your friends when you were little?
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, I remember the first one. Grade one, I made a weather report about thunder and lightning. Incredible. And we did a big Bristol board uh with like tinfoil lightning and uh big like cotton ball clouds. And me and my friend uh me and my friend Danielle, I lived in a very Italian neighborhood, talked about thunder and lightning um in front of my mom's uh washing machine for about three minutes.
SPEAKER_06Ooh.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But stuff like that. And then like when I was old enough to run around the neighborhood with my camcorder, we'd do like badly done, like jackass style stunts, trying to convince each other to jump off of roofs and like trying to like see who could get over, jump over as many bushes without falling, which there was no way of doing it. Like you would wipe out, and we just wanted to film each other wiping out. It was fun. I if I saw my kids doing that, I would be like, you f yeah, stuff like that. Okay, so my dad was an animator. I was never interested in like doing animation. I could I was never really good at like drawing. I s I'm still really not. I never have had the patience to like train. But when I discovered how to make images with a computer, like I I clinged on to that at an early age. I would do I was huge into flash animations. I would make like I even made like soundboards and stuff, so I learned like a bit of programming on Flash. Making those in Charlotte to my friends was like a joy. And somehow my career has basically turned into making anything I want, showing it to my friends, making them laugh or say wow, and somehow getting a paycheck at some point for some of it.
SteveThat rules. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So that's basically what I do. Yeah.
SteveThe best thing in the world is to make your friends say wow andor gasp.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it really is.
SteveAnd sometimes to make them say, fuck you.
SPEAKER_01That too. That soundboard I made was directly made to tease a friend of mine. I recorded his voice on a s phone call over like speaker phone and then made used like the stupid things he said and put made into a soundboard.
SteveIncredible. I miss soundboards from where'd those go?
SPEAKER_01Where'd those go?
SteveShould we jump into the boost?
SPEAKER_01Let's boost it.
SteveVice Land, episode 10, the boost. Jay is sick but unwilling to take media medicine. Matt tricks him into taking cold medicine and eventually speed in order to win a golden eye speedrun tournament that he mistakenly believes will get them a show at the Rivoli. Opening titles, GoldenEye 007, which I believe were animated by you.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
MichelleI wanted to ask you about this before we get into the episode plot. Um I saw that you had like modded the game and like made a whole playable version with Matt and Jay as James Bond and Natalia.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
MichelleCan you tell us a little bit about how you did that?
SPEAKER_01This was one of those great like side projects, uh, me really distracting myself from anything else I had to do and staying up all night to build this. So in the script, it just said opening credits in the style of GoldenEye64. And then me and Jared started talking. I had this idea of modding the actual game because I knew about modding. I'd been like I'd modded like Counter-Strike and stuff in like high school and stuff. I knew you could swap skins, I knew that stuff like that happened. And they were like, okay, let's figure it out. So I started researching, I find out that there's a mod tool that someone made for modding Goldeneye. And one other game, it was like Mickey's Race Course or something like that. It also modded. And I try to f I download this thing, I try to figure out how to use it. It's like a piece of shit. I'm sorry, sub drag, who name the person who made it. It's a piece of shit. It looks like it's spilled out of like the subconscious of a mad programmer. It's borderline unusable to someone who doesn't deeply understand how N64 ROMs function, which I am one of those deeply not understanding people. So I fumbled my way through it, no tutorials, just clicked every button until I figured out what did what. And I figured out how to swap skins. So I figured out how to download the skin, rip the skin from the game for the Bond character, bring it into Photoshop, line up Bond's face with an image I took of Jay on my cell phone, and pasted it on, got everything just right, imported it back into the ROM. I would have to play the game a little bit to see if it rendered properly in game. It didn't. I had to do it again, map it up like more one-to-one. And it was a lot of that. And actually, once we got into the nitty-gritty and I figured out how to use it, I showed Jared how to use it. And me and him stayed up all night one night, just like photoshopping skins together and modding N64. It was like, it's like a dream. Like, how is this like a job?
MichelleI mean, all worth it. It's it's a really it's one of the all-time great opening sequences, at least that I've seen so far.
SPEAKER_01I it's it's kind of my specialty to like over-engineer a very simple thing just to have it done really the right way. Because we could have we could have like 3D animated, um, we could have gotten someone to 3D animate the intro animation of Jaywalking, but it wouldn't have been the same. It wouldn't have been rendered on an N64, it wouldn't have had like the right materials, it would have been faked, and like it's the philosophy of this whole show not to fake anything. Not only that, but that's it's not even like we talked about that, but that's just how we all feel about making things. And so like I figured out the real way to do it, and then we just did it. And like we kind of handed it to them, and they were like, Oh my god, how did you do this? And then that Christmas we were all playing uh the N64 mod on an emulator uh at the Christmas party.
SteveI think that is the the opening credits of this episode are such a s it's a small touch that it helps the reality of the rest of the episode. Because if you guys did the work to really modifying N64, I think it tells people these guys are doing something for real, and anything that may have been faked or edited for the rest of the episode like is given more validity by the fact that you guys cared enough to modify the actual Goldeneye.
SPEAKER_01I'm so glad it just sets a standard. I'm so glad you feel that way. I mean, that's how we feel about a lot of um kind of like star moments of of uh of our show. When we could really sell and anchor the reality of something, it lets you get away with a lot when things are either have to be kind of pieced together in a way that's feels a little bit fabricated. And that goes even into like why it's shot the way it's shot, like why we use these cameras, because and the why we shoot it like from far away and stuff like that, because like it uses a language of reality. Or at least like it doesn't betray a language of reality.
MichelleYeah.
SPEAKER_01Because like if you shot it cinematically, the cameras feel too close, and it's like, why is the camera this close? And if we use extras and people are kind of acting weird and don't seem like real humans, it's like, why do people not seem real?
MichelleYeah.
SPEAKER_01So we go through great lengths not to betray what could be perceived as real, even when we have to fake it.
MichelleThere's a thing, anytime I see movies or TV shows where someone shows a drawing that a child's theoretically made, and then you like see the drawing, and it's clearly done by an adult children.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's done by like it's done by a child style. By one of the people in the art department who are trying to fake that.
MichelleThat's like a thing, yeah. It always takes me out of it. And like on the rare occasion that you do see art that is either like a really believable fake or like someone got an actual child to draw something. It's so nice. And like I feel like that is the ethos of like going through the trouble of of finding this like mod, this ROM tool and modding Golden Eye itself is you found a child to make a child's drawing.
SPEAKER_01Thankfully, thankfully, we are children. But yeah, no, exactly. That's uh that's like the best metaphor I've heard for that. Yeah, it's like finding a child to actually do the child's drawing. Yeah, exactly.
SteveShould we talk about the fact that that anti-drug PSA was on one of the VHS types that came to me in the first time? Oh, of course you did. What?
SPEAKER_01We saw that that was for real on TV in Canada when we were kids. That was like a puppet one?
MichelleYeah, that's so scary.
SPEAKER_01That would be on between our like after school cartoons reminding us, eight years old, not to do drugs, just in case we didn't know. Or we thought we wanted to do drugs at eight years old.
MichelleYeah, terrifying. It's so scary. Did you also watch The Raccoons? I had never heard of that program until this episode came on.
SPEAKER_01I think I was just too young for the raccoons. I kind of learned about them in the internet age.
SteveHmm.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SteveYeah, the raccoons I had not seen before, but the first time I watched that episode and that PSA came up, I was like, I fucking know that thing, that thing rocked.
SPEAKER_01That's probably something that one of the editors found and like pitched as being part of this story for when they realized they wanted they needed Jay to be anti-drugs.
SteveThere are those weird things that kind of traumatize you as a kid that you half remember. And then you go back and watch them, they're like, oh, actually, they were genuinely fucked up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, I'm trying to think of more examples, but they're too deep in my psyche. I can't quite dredge them out. They'll come out in uh unexpected ways.
SteveWell, did any of you watch Cartoon All Stars to the Rescue? The anti the anti-smoking uh TV special that was every single Saturday morning cartoon show telling you not to do drugs. Oh, look at this. It's everybody. The ninja the ninja turtles are there, the Muppets.
SPEAKER_01Tigger's there. Wow. They all got together.
MichelleIs this really the Cartoon All-Stars?
SteveNo, it's everybody and George W. Bush. Uh not George W. Bush, George H. W. Bush.
SPEAKER_01All of the owners of these characters license these characters as a tax write-off, and all for everyone got to do this together as a big tax write-off.
Steve100% because like Garfield shows up for 45 seconds. I I've seen this a thousand times.
MichelleBut then I feel like Garfield's probably really into drugs. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You don't get an appetite like that sober.
MichelleThat man eats a lot of lasagna.
SPEAKER_01Mondays.
SteveNot gonna go down the Garfield uh rabbit hole again on this show. Um just oh man, I love those things that kind of fucked you up because there was like a weird smoke monster on that special.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I just remembered one from my psyche. My psyche's telling me things. Um, we had a show in Canada called Um Are You Afraid of the Dark? Have you heard of this?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, we had it. Yeah, this?
SPEAKER_01Okay, maybe it was I always felt like it was Canadian because it was on our Canadian channels, but there was an episode where it's like a haunted pool. And you know this one?
SPEAKER_06Yes, scares me. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and there's a monster that comes out of the pool, and it is legitimately to this day one of the most horrifying images I've ever seen in my life. He's like blood red. He looks like he's made of dripping rotten flesh, and it has like a skull face, and this is like this was a children's show. Oh, like for thirty it was like PG 13 or something. Like it was for like the tweens. But I saw that too young.
MichelleOh, that's horrifying. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Are you seeing it?
MichelleHaunting. Uh-huh. I don't remember this episode. That's awful. Of course you were traumatized.
SPEAKER_01There was an X-Files episode that scared me too, but I shouldn't have been watching that, I guess.
MichelleThere was an Are You Afraid of the Dark that really stuck with me that was like, I think it was someone who was it was the whole episode, she was like trapped in an empty mall, and it turned out she was in a coma. And it was basically it was like proto backrooms. I was gonna say, she's the back rooms.
SPEAKER_01These shows wanted to hurt children.
MichelleOh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And like I think kids kind of like kids like the feeling of like, oh, am I gonna stop watching? No, I'm gonna like force myself to watch it. I'm tough. Like, that was like a feeling you can't get now as a kid because the shows don't do that to you. You have to like seek out stuff that's actually too mature for you. This was like, at least it was PG for the most part, is just kind of scary. But now kids watch all kinds of demented stuff that's like made for adults. I don't know, I'm I'm making this up. This is might not be true.
SteveNo, well, actually, I'm gonna actually back your point. Uh, this is dad dad mode coming in. Okay. Uh they reformatted Sesame Street this year for the first time, like basically ever.
KitAnd made it way less scary. Made it more scary.
SteveNo, they did. They literally said they wanted to add more danger to the stories because kids respond well to things that make them uncomfortable. Okay. And like what that point you're making, Luca, like, is very true. Like, not that it's like pool monsters, but like they're getting into more complicated emotions and tension on Sesame Street now because kids respond well to that.
SPEAKER_01Kids want to feel complicated emotions, like uh above a certain age. Once you understand that you enjoy stories, you want to hear you and see stories that have like stakes or are actually dangerous. And I think it's probably good for kids' psyches to like experience that in like a safe way with like rails and stuff like that. Because like that's something you're gonna be feeling your whole life. You don't want people to, as adults, experience something that's totally alien from anything that they would have experienced a bit of as a child and kind of been able to get acquainted with it and get used to it and learn how to like handle it. Like, you know, even it's even with like conflict resolution, like teaching kids to like apologize and be friends and stuff like that. And I I don't have kids, but this is my parenting philosophy, apparently.
SteveAnd and and I honestly I think it's a healthy one because like now they're literally doing like a and not to go too far down, but like Elmo's like an asshole to the other kids about a race because like he didn't eat.
SPEAKER_01Which race?
SteveLike they're doing like a foot race, and like Elmo refuses to eat lunch because he's feeling like I'm gonna keep going. Um like Elmo is refusing to eat because he's being too stubborn, and then he loses and starts acting like a real fucking prick to everybody, and nobody wants to play with him anymore. And they have to be like, yo, Elmo, eat a fucking sandwich and stop being an asshole.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so he's not perfect, he's like a flawed, like he would do something like a child would do.
SteveExactly. And I think that is just really healthy. So maybe not the drug PSA of like the guy's eyeballs falling out or whatever.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that was just straight like fear.
unknownYeah.
SteveThey overcorrected for a while. Overcorrected, and now Elmo's not eating a sandwich and acting like me on a hot day.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, so that PSA, yeah, we had some real stuff like that. There, I think there was another really spooky Canadian one, but I don't remember what it was. But um, concerned children's advertisers was our PSA people.
SteveThat sounds nefarious. Yeah, it does. They sound like they're banning books because they might have a gay character in them.
SPEAKER_01They might have. I haven't done the research, but this was the 90s.
SteveBut so Jay's sick, um, and he doesn't want to take any drugs because of this. And of course. Now we get, I think, the most reasonable Matt has ever been being just like, man, take some coal medicine. Yeah, right. Like it's the most like Matt is the voice of reason in the room that I think we'll ever see. Yeah. And I do enjoy the bit of him trying to blow the germs away from himself after Jay coughs.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I love that. That's a real Mattism. That's something that uh can only come out of that man's mind in the moment. Yeah, it Matt becomes a voice of reason when Jay is just having like an emotional issue.
MichelleYeah.
SPEAKER_01Matt's got big crazy ideas that are gonna get them killed, and Jay's the voice of reason. Matt Jay like doesn't want to take medicine and he's sick and he's being a baby, and Matt's the voice of reason. That's kind of their I guess what this episode shows about their dynamic.
SteveI think that's a really good read on it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
MichelleI also love the little bit of lore uh that sort of reveals itself, which is that Jay is the one who's always setting up the Nintendo when they play. Yeah since Matt doesn't know where the cables go.
SPEAKER_01It makes this it makes you think like that Matt must see in black and white or something. Like, how does he not how does he get it can't match red and red, can't match yellow and yellow. I don't think there's any kind of color blindness that makes up for that besides just of totally lingering blindness and exaggerated stupidity. Oh yeah, the eyes the sun burned out his color vision.
SteveI have to make a confession.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SteveI relate as usual, I think I related too much to Matt, as I often do on this show. Because I was like, oh, he's overthinking it. He's ignoring the color coding, and he's like, all right, so L means that like he's refusing, yeah, he's refusing to see like red goes into red, and he's so far in the fucking weeds. Yeah, that's right. Like trying to figure it out, and I related to that way too much.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he's overthinking it. You just gotta sometimes slow down, and that's kind of what part of this episode is about.
SteveWe bring back video game day and Jay's love of video game day, and how now even Matt's frustrated by Jay trying to get those glitches and hacks.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's true. It's a callback.
SteveIt comes out of nowhere. I totally forgot that that was the the reason he calls out the video game day thing, and I was like, fuck, they're really going that far back to pull that one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I think that that was one of those things that came in reshoots or rewrites, the video game day reference. It was one of those things that felt like it was at hand and could explain Jay's attitude at the beginning of the show.
SteveDo you guys intentionally like pull back from other episodes, or is it just kind of just ping-pong out of somebody's head and that's how you use that?
SPEAKER_01It's never forced. It's only if it like if it becomes uh a construction tool. Or if it's like a funny, a funny like callback. Um, like in the in the movie when Jay says he's scared of mannequins in the interview, which is a callback to the web series.
MichelleMichelle's favorite bit. It's it's my favorite bit from the web series. I love it. Mannequins. I'm afraid of mannequins. Kills me.
SPEAKER_01It's never like pulled back on purpose to build something off of. Because like there's always the best idea you'll have is like the next idea you have. You don't have to pull this stuff out off the shelf to use it. But like if you have a specific situation where you need to kind of fill in the blank in this mad lib, and if one of the things just happens to be a very funny thing you remember that about Matt and Jay, that like a piece of trivia from their weird old stuff, like it kind of works its way into the present in that moment in a fun way. If it makes us laugh, basically.
SteveSo Matt fries the cable, somehow the TV sparks when he's trying to plug cables in for the N64. And he says, fine, he's gonna go buy some new cables from ANC games, and Jay wants candy because he's a giant baby this whole episode. I get it. I think it's a very reasonable request. So I have a little criticism. Uh-oh.
SPEAKER_03Oh.
SteveAnd now that we now that we have a Canadian here, you can maybe answer this. He gets good and plenties and replaces them with cold pills. I was like, why wouldn't you do Mike and Ike's Matt? I didn't know if maybe you guys don't have Mike and Ike.
SPEAKER_01I have no idea. We don't have Gooden Plenties either. Like, I think they don't sell them anymore. I don't know. I could be wrong about this. I don't see that. Okay. I don't see that shit around. Yeah, I can't explain this. There's no there's no that's just that's just how it happened. It's good and plenties. I don't have an answer.
SteveIt makes it so funny because good and plenin's are like white and purple and like very specific color schemes. And I and it makes it so much funnier that they they pick the most specific thing that it has looks nothing like.
unknownI think it could have been.
SPEAKER_01It could have just been the way Matt says Good and Plenys that became the anchor of why that would have been kept, but I really have no memory of that. It's just uh inexplicable choice. You're right.
SteveCan I share a horrifying story with the group? Always. I have some real horrible flashbacks with good and plenty. Sorry, Luca, there this is like the Steve Harbor story corner. So I used to wear novelty pajama pants when I was in high school. Okay. And I often bought candy. So I had these good and plenty ones that I I had bought at like Kohl's or whatever. And our creepy landlord, she was this like 80-year-old woman who was like weirdly obsessed with me. And I'm I'm walking to the garbage and she sees me in my good and plenty pajama pants. She goes, you know, when I see you, I just can't help but think of those candies. I love those pants. And I was like, haha, anyway, keep going. And then my brother's like, Bro, I fucking saw Stephanie's dashboard. There's like 30 boxes of good and plenies on there. And all I could think of is my creepy old landlord seeing my PJ pants and then compulsively eating good and plenies.
SPEAKER_03Did you burn the PJ pants after this or did you continue to wear them around the building?
SteveOh, I wrote those into the ground.
SPEAKER_01What do they call that in uh French? In uh psychotherapy, sublimation?
SteveYeah, yeah. Creep. Uh because here's the thing. If even if, you know, even yes, sublimation, and if it does happen, right, like cool, but why would you look at a teenager and be like, every time I see you, I can't stop eating those? Which is horrifying. So I'm sitting there watching this episode and I'm like kind of flashback.
SPEAKER_01That's so funny. I don't think anyone could have expected such a negative strange memory around good and plenies when we wrote that episode.
MichelleI thought you were just gonna say that you ate them and they were gross, which is my negative experience of Gooden Plennies.
SPEAKER_01You're a wonder wonderfully unique individual, Steve.
SteveYou know, that's the kindest phrasing anyone's ever used, Luca, so thank you. Reign of terror is what I often use when we're recording the show. Um so uh Matt goes to this pharmacy, and this pharmacist, I love this guy. He is just unflappable when Matt's like I'm just gonna buy these cold pills and put it in the candy box.
SPEAKER_01It's a drug, it'll make him sleepy.
SteveWhen you guys, and you don't have to reveal this if you don't want to, when you get somebody like that, right, and they're blurred out, is that like because it's funny because they didn't sign the consent forms or both?
SPEAKER_01No, I think there's a specific reason for that. I think it's because I'm trying to remember, don't quote me on this, but yeah. When we shoot out on the street with people, um, it's basically it's a public space. If you're outside, you don't really have like assumed privacy. You don't really have to be blurred. If you go onto someone's property and you're on their property filming them, then you need their consent, or else you they can't participate. You have to blur them. Um and I don't know exactly why he was blurred. It could have been a release he that he didn't want to release, or it could have literally been that Kurt thought it would be funnier if he was blurred.
SteveYeah, I just meant in general because I find that sometimes the blur makes the bit funnier.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SteveOr in uh the booking where they bleep out Matt's rant about pedophiles, and when you see the raw footage, it's nowhere near as bad as the bleeps make it sound.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and you just kind of know when it works. And sometimes you also know like when it's not gonna work. Like sometimes it'll be like we have to get a release from this person because blurring them, this gag will not work. And then maybe it just gets cut if that happens. Like it won't be used blurred if it's not working.
SteveThey go to he goes to the video game store and sees the GoldenEye tournament that's uh the prizes to go on uh the rival one show, and Matt reads it as Rively.
SPEAKER_01That goes back, like that's one of the few things that survived from like the original script and was written in, obviously, because they would have like that was kind of one of those things that the script hinges on, is that they confuse, make that confusing.
MichelleI think the other detail that I really love about this part of the show is that Matt is speed running these errands that he is literally physically running down the streets. Yeah. It just it kills me. It's so funny. I didn't really think about it the first time I watched this episode, and then the second time I I it got me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. He always goes fast, but in this episode it really works. Did you guys catch the reference to Streets 112 on when Matt's on the street?
MichelleI don't know what that is.
SPEAKER_01When Matt's in one of the shots where Matt's on the street, I don't know if he's when he's going to the pharmacy or later, but it says like Streets 112 as like time of day. And Streets 112 is what this whole episode was inspired by, which is a YouTube video of a speedrunner who just broke a record on Goldeneye for the Streets level, one minute 12 seconds. And the video is called Ryan Lockwood Streets 112. And Matt saw this video and thought it was the greatest thing he'd ever seen, and he wrote a whole episode about Goldeneye speedrunning based on how excited that video made him feel.
MichelleThat's so funny. I knew that Streets was a level from Goldeneye, but I thought that was where it ended. And I was wondering why the time was in there. Yeah, right. It's really, really funny.
SPEAKER_01Streets 112, that's it. And it really is. Yeah, you guys gotta see it. It's incredible. It got me into watching speedrunning videos. I still watch like tons. I don't speedrun anything. I barely play video games anymore, but uh I'll watch like summoning salt every video. Yeah, you know summoning salt? Hell yeah, Kit.
KitLove him. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SteveThis is this is the world that Kit tries to explain to me sometimes. Yes.
KitYeah.
SteveAnd I'm glad I'm glad you love it.
KitWell, I was looking to see if Summoning Assault had done like a Goldeneye speedrun video to send you guys, but I from what I could tell, he hasn't done one yet.
SPEAKER_01I bet he doesn't touch it because they've got so many commentators already. Like GoldenEye is one of the most commented on speedrun histories by like people who are self-declared kind of historians and they do a good job of it. But a summoning style video of that, it's gotta it's gotta be done.
KitYeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SteveYeah, but I did a little Googling for this episode. I was like, fuck, there's whole websites devoted to GoldenEye speedruns.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I was gonna say I think one of the origin sites of like speedrun records was a golden eye site, but I could be wrong about that. It might have been a doom or an uh or a quake site. Or maybe it's multiple origins. I don't know.
SteveNo, it's one of those things where like so many people in my life watch that or play competitive games, and I'm always like, I want to get it, and I desperately try and understand, and then I'm like, I it's an impressive feat, but I just can't can't get on it.
SPEAKER_01It's an impressive feat. You don't have I'm not even on board. Like I love hearing about the ingenuity and the brain power and the creativity that it takes to understand a game enough that you can break it and still have it hold together in a way where you can complete it. It's so impressive to me, and it teaches me about how games are made, and that's interesting to me. I apologize to anyone out there who's a speedrunner. You should stop.
KitYou're going too fast.
SPEAKER_01You're going no, there are things you could be putting your time into that have uh a happy end. And I don't think speedrunning is one of them. I love you guys though. I gotta watch you on YouTube still. Keep the content coming.
SteveJust go Do you guys know the game Shaq, the infamous game Shack Fu, Shiloh Dell's monster fighting game? Kit Michelle know. Like my best friend's a competitive retro gamer. And he has multiple Shack Fu trophies. Because it's this game that not a lot of people competed in. And he cracked how the game is broken with the timing enough for that he can overcompensate for the for the flaws in it. So knowing that like if you hit the A button, he'll punch like three seconds too late, or that if you like figure out that timing, you can beat it. And if you go to his apartment, or for some reason his wife lets him have multiple Shack Fu trophies and medals hanging because he competes in it every year.
MichelleDo they make custom Shack Fu trophies with like Shack on top?
SteveUh there's a retro gaming convention on Long Island that he goes to every year, and you can you sign up to compete in games, and if you win that one, you bring home a trophy.
SPEAKER_01Are they shaped like Shack Fu?
SteveNo, unfortunately. They're just like regular trophies. But it is it is very funny.
SPEAKER_01So they look very impressive, and you get close to them and you read the black. That's why his wife lets him keep them, because from far away in the corner they look great.
SteveBut there's that level of skill and precision, like and that thoughtfulness to figure out the way that something is broken to compensate for it. Like you're saying that you could do so much more with.
SPEAKER_01It's amazing. It's really, it's really, really genuinely impressive. And I'm sorry for just disparaging speedrunners. I really do love you people. But I also could not I I could not be fucked to try. Although that being said, when we were shooting this episode, we did have uh there was like a flash of speed run enthusiasm that went through the whole house. And all of us were trying to do damn agent on the easiest mode as fast as we could. And just learning how that was done, which is a lot of like looking down, strafing, shooting the little lock, getting the timing right, getting the good start on the gate, stuff like that. And um, we would all take turns doing it past the controller around. And I got eventually I I stayed like after everyone else, and I stayed for like four hours and I practiced, and I got really good at it.
KitYeah.
SPEAKER_01And I showed everyone the next day that I'd gotten like the second to world record, which is not hard. It's like a lot of people, a lot of people get it. Okay. It's an easy one. And all of a sudden, nobody cared anymore about speedruns in the apartment. So the lesson to take away from that is um sometimes the joy isn't in winning, the joy is in everyone kind of sucking together, and you don't want to be the one who's good at it because then there's no fun for everyone else.
SteveIt's true, but you still get to gloat.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, you still you pri privately you can be the best. Secretly, yeah. You probably are.
SteveAt shackfu or golden eye damn level.
SPEAKER_01Imagine you show up at your friends and you're shackfuing the shit out of him, and you get that might that might end his life, and I would miss him very much.
SteveBut um, I love Matt's excitement to the point where they Jay's like, oh come on, they wouldn't do that, which made me laugh. Uh yeah, nobody would speedrun Golden IJ. But um Matt being like, Yeah, I thought it was a dream, and then I checked, and I want to see if I was flying, and then I said Sharon. And I said to Jared, no, you wouldn't be filming me in my dream, would you?
SPEAKER_01Why would you ever be filming my dream? That's yeah, that's one of the good I think it's one of the greatest flashbacks ever. What did you say I tried to fly? Is this a dream? And the way it's cut is so fast and so sharp. It's like it's like intoxicating.
SteveIt is a real the joke is in the edit more than anything else on that one. It's so good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SteveAnd Matt uh drugs J.
SPEAKER_01Really intoxicating.
SteveYeah. I just love how he's up on cold medicine, but just so chilly playing Goldeneye.
SPEAKER_01Yeah and back in his regular clothes. And he starts playing slow and the the character starts moving so slow. Like James Bond himself has taken too many cold meds. Yeah. It's so stupid. But it's so good. It's so good.
SteveAnd and Matt standing there like a kid trying to help his dad fix something with holding the hammer, and he's like, Okay, I have the Nintendo power. Uh go here, do that. And he just looks like such a little boy trying to help.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SteveWhen Jay does not need him.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It's a real Jay episode. And Jay sitting on that piano so slow and the creaking of the piano.
SteveAnd then that really dramatic uh X-Men theme song. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Jay does a gorgeous rendition.
SteveI am pretty sure they play a dramatic version of that on that X-Men 97 at one point. Oh, really? Oh, really? Very similar version. Yeah. I've never seen it. You may not have insight into this, but then Matt does my favorite type of Matt gag, which is where he addresses the camera and like pokes holes in his own show. Because he's like, how could that comment it's in that make that happen? That doesn't make any logical sense. Just like in a previous episode when he was like, uh, plot development, Jay went to the bathroom. Whenever Matt like points out that it's a TV show and like criticizes the logic is my favorite type of sh joke on this show.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, breaking the fourth wall. Like how much these guys actually know? You gotta be very sparing with it because it's like a special it's a special seasoning that can only be used like extremely because it you don't want it to be a show about a show. And so like they shouldn't realize they're on a show, and they don't. They think Jared's just hanging out with them, I guess.
SteveWhen when you're a shooting, like, do you ever feel like you're like Luca the character in the world, or are you purely looking at it from like the technical and creative standpoint?
SPEAKER_01Um, both. I am I mean well, see like what I did before I met these guys was basically what I do on the show. Like the reason I got into documentary filmmaking is because like the first thing I did when I got a camera was just kind of follow my friends around and film them and like make them I would make them little shorts about themselves.
SPEAKER_06That's so fun.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like I I loved the things that I loved when you can see a person in a certain way through a camera and they kind of like reveal themselves, also especially in the way that you edited it. You can kind of you can kind of um encapsulate an aspect of what you love about somebody and then show it to them if you want, like you don't even have to do that part. But that's like documentary filmmaking, really. And so like my character in the show, I'm just doing that. Like I'm doing what I always wanted to do with a camera, which is just film people that I like being goofy and just being themselves, like revealing themselves in front of the camera in ways where hopefully they kind of forget they're on camera. So yeah, that's ca that's the Luca character, but like there's no like invented big backstory that I'll like pretend to have about it.
SteveAnd I think that's great, because it feels real. Like you and you and Jared, like, and like the camera work in general does feel like what you're describing. Like we're filming our friends being goofy, not necessarily that you're trying to document these two weirdos.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, yeah, document, you know, document the weirdos is part of it, yeah.
SteveLike I mean, more like the nerd like Nirvana the band is trying to sell their TV show to Vicelander or whatever. It's filming.
SPEAKER_01You're right. It's more of like we're hanging out with our friends, and this is how we like to hang out with them by filming them. Which is literally like what I think that's how me and Jared both kind of grew up. Uh, and so like it just translates perfectly. It's just, yeah, we are just ourselves, you know.
SteveAnd then Matt decides he's gotta buy some speed because Jay's so sleepy. And then you get to the guy you were talking about, the dude in front of the church, who is just an all-star.
SPEAKER_01He's amazing, and I hope he's doing well. We obviously haven't seen him since then, but he you could tell he was a real authentic person who had been through a lot. Because you don't become a person doing what he's doing unless you've been through a lot. And Matt tells him this crazy shit, and he says, We're doing it to win a goldeneye tournament. Do you know Goldeneye? And the guy drops his whole like personality for a moment, and like it's like he's a little kid again, and he goes, Yeah, I know that game. And it's like the facade he was putting on, not that it's a facade, but like he's he's doing something with Matt. Like he's trying to convince Matt to accept Jesus and not do drugs. And for a moment he just is thinking about Goldeneye. And the fact that Matt made him do that on the street is a magic, magic thing. Um, but he's a real dude. And me and Jared act, in fact, were very careful about shooting shooting in that neighborhood because there is shooting in that neighborhood in the uh of the other kind. Um it's in the it like I'm not gonna talk shit about any neighborhoods in Toronto, but Moss Park um is like it's tricky to feel safe in certain parts of it at night, you know? Um or even during the day. Um but uh yeah, so well we went there obviously for the plot, basically, because like where else is Matt gonna go by speed? Um and so yeah, that guy really just was there in that neighborhood.
SteveUm He meets Matt with such authenticity and like genuine kindness and concern. Genuine kindness is beautiful.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he really is like concerned for Matt. He doesn't want Matt going down the wrong path. God bless that guy.
SteveYeah. And then he's like, You should try coffee, and Matt's like, we tried the before. It made him sleepy.
SPEAKER_01That's a line we quote all the time is him going, You should have a coffee, it'd be much better. And just the way he says it'd be much better is like that's on the tip of our tongues all the time.
SteveSo Matt buys $200 worth of sleep from a random woman in an alleyway.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a real woman. Um, I don't want to reveal too much about that whole thing, but it's real basically.
SteveJust his escalation to how about $200?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right. He's like 20, 30. Uh, could we do 200? Yeah, it's uh talk about an MJ escalation.
MichelleIt is also wild because like I think there's a lot of stuff in the show where like they're doing things, they're like imagining adulthood the way that like a 14-year-old would. And like this specifically is like, this is what I thought it was to buy drugs when I was young. And like, I still don't I I how do you buy speed? I have no clue. But it's like, is it walking around a neighborhood just being like, uh, I'm looking, I'm looking for meth. Can I please have it? Yeah, it's so wild. Yeah.
SteveAnd thank you very much.
SPEAKER_01Michelle, what drug would you buy if you had to buy a drug? Illegal.
MichelleIllegal. I mean, maybe. Uh it seems like I know where to go get some speed, so maybe I'll just go around and ask for one speed, please.
SPEAKER_01One speed, please. Um, does everyone want to say they're illegal drugs of choice? You can it's okay to say none, which is my answer.
MichelleCan't believe this was a trick.
SPEAKER_01Her desire for speed.
SteveOh my god. Yeah, it turns out that Nirvana the Band of the Show is just a long con to catch people in drugs.
SPEAKER_01This this podcast is the payoff.
MichelleThat's true.
SteveI would love if our podcast culminated in several arrests.
MichelleThink it might. Anything's possible.
SteveKit has wanted a cease and desist for many, many episodes.
SPEAKER_01Well, keep trying. Don't give up.
SteveMaybe we go to publish this episode and then Luca sends you a cease and desist. That'd be huge, actually.
SPEAKER_01To refrain from further contact with Luca Tarantini, sent on behalf of Luca Tarantini by Luca Tarantini.
SteveThe whole episode's just a series of bleeps and then me telling sickening stories. They they go to the tournament and uh Matt convinces Jay to take it by saying, Oh, you know Juicy Fruit?
SPEAKER_06Mm-hmm.
SteveSold.
SPEAKER_01The whole Jay loving Candy and Matt conniving him is such a beautiful It's a magic element of this episode that you don't really see in other episodes. Like Matt never has Jay so secretly in his hand as when he's like, he knows Jay's got like a candy addiction and he's trying to get him to take these pills.
SteveI mean he gets that pleasure center in Jay's brain, right? Like, oh, musicians are here, or oh, you know, candy?
SPEAKER_01Like he's just that hints that little impulse button in Jay's uh He knows he he knows uh Jay's uh Pavlovian bells to ring. He got them all memorized.
SteveSo I I forgot to ask you at the beginning, and I because I think you were saying, like, because this was the first one you fully worked on from start to finish. Is that the reason you wanted to cover this one, or is there something about this episode that like really sings to you?
SPEAKER_01Well, Goldeneye is one of the games I played a ton when I was a kid, even though I was kind of too young for it when it first came out. Like I was um I would have been like six or seven, I think. But some of my friends had it and I would borrow it and like play it in my house on my N64. So it was the first episode I had been on from the beginning. And basically the first day I was kind of walking on set as like a full-time camera person on this show. We were walking, I I walked into the house full of two Nintendo 64s, two big CRT monitors, cables covered in or the grounds covered in RCA cables and like RCA switchers, because we were figuring out how we were gonna do the live speed run because Jay was gonna start playing for real and then switch halfway to a recorded speedrun where he was actually really, really good. But we didn't want anyone else in ANC games to know that was happening. So we s we had to set it up secretly with like RCA cables and a switcher and all this stuff, and we were testing it that day. And I couldn't believe that I was walking into like my new job and it was just plugging in N64 cables and test like doing little nerdy things, testing if little machines work, being like, oh no, this is the wrong adapter for this uh there's the wrong power adapter for this uh switcher. We need the other one. Like it was just a pl a world I became instantly so comfortable and so happy in. And uh that's kind of what that place was always like, the 107 Shaw House. It was kind of like it was like a a kindergarten class where sometimes there were cameras, but it had friendly cameras. We were operating the cameras.
SteveIt wasn't like a flock situation.
SPEAKER_01No, no, it wasn't a flock situation, it wasn't it wasn't someone in the bushes, it was just me and Jared in the bushes. But yeah, it that's when I kind of started, and just to give you context of how much overlap in shooting schedules there were, there was back then, the day that we were prepping for shooting um the speed run, later that day we went and shot the banner stuff on Queen Street, which was episode one.
SPEAKER_06Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01Which needed reshoots for the dropping of the banner or for Jay's reaction to the banner, something like that. So like we were working on season two, episode two, basically getting ready to shoot it, and still finishing season one, episode one. There was so much overlap in episodes being made, like season two and one episode at the same time, like eight episodes on the go. It was crazy. The editors like got very close to burnout, if not burnout. Well, I mean, we all kind of did, but it was like it was a crazy schedule, but we all kind of we wanted to be there. And so it was just wild. It's kind of amazing it even happened and it all got done. It didn't collapse under its own like ambition. But that's like I guess that gave us a confidence to keep going.
SteveYeah. I will say just as a viewer who found it in like 2023-ish, it it comes through that you guys are busting your asses and somehow also made a miracle you're proud of. Like it it reads when you watch the show.
SPEAKER_01That's so I'm so glad. If we didn't care so much when we were making it, it wouldn't have staying power. Like we all watch a lot of stuff that you see one time and you kind of never think about or want to see again. But when something is like there's something special and magical about something that it keeps coming back into your life and you keep choosing to bring it back into your life, that usually comes from people wanting to feel that as they were making it. Like they want to be here forever, or they want to be working on this, or they want to be like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if there's a better way of putting that, but I'm glad it shows.
SteveAnd yeah, yeah, because you can tell like when people are over it when they're making something.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
MichelleIt does come if you're in your 12th season of a CW show and you're just doing it for the paycheck.
SPEAKER_01I think everyone gets into the arts or film or really any job feeling like you want to do it forever. But it's kind of an unfortunate reality that a lot for a lot of these projects that multiple people get involved in, whether it's film or a corporation or something like that, for it to like hold together and function, there needs to be a lot of like structure and hierarchy and strangers that are not friends and maybe will never be friends working together. And this it outgrows like it's like the system becomes greater than um people's relationships can maintain. And so people don't have like relationships that they'd want to be engaging with while they're doing it. But like they got there for a reason, like they wanted to do this thing, but it's incredibly rare that it ends up being something that that that you kind of want to be doing. I don't know. I'm um I guess I'm just am I just shitting on like careers in general? What am I doing right now?
SteveNo, I I don't I don't think you are, and I can't believe I'm going down this road. But um many years ago I hosted a Vin Diesel podcast to get through COVID where I did the career of Vin Diesel, and he is a guy who you what you're describing is exactly that. If you ever see his first short film that he wrote directed in the world. I did, it's so good. It's so good. Multifacial. And then his first feature film that he wrote during Sar, it's not a great movie, but it is a guy giving a real performance with real passion and really caring. And one of the reasons I did that show is I found his arc so fascinating from this like sincere creative dude to like a shell of a man who just like lies on the water.
SPEAKER_01Like it crushed him.
SteveLike his first major movie was um Saving Private Orion. And he like shadowed Spielberg on filming that. And to watch a guy go start out with these best intentions of being like a creative and caring about art to being like, so I'm bringing back Paul Walker as a hologram and I'm gonna just like lie about movies filming that aren't currently filming. That's watching that like love of art just like totally collapse under the commerce of it all.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and you I think when you have a bit of success, you get tempted to chase that. And if you're chasing it for the love of doing it, is good. If you're chasing it for like the hope of uh sequential success, then you're kind of like that becomes your your god, like success. And then it's like, what do I need for this to be a success? And the metric of success is basically did it make money? And then that becomes like then you're just thinking of what will sell rather than what is like Vin Diesel's first film, a beautiful work of art. Um that also could be bullshit, but that's kind of it's feels right to me.
SteveIt's sincere, and if I love anything, it's sincerity.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SteveI still haven't seen the first Vin Diesel movie.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, what's it called?
SteveMultifacial.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SteveIt's like it's very short. It's a short film.
SPEAKER_01It's short. You wouldn't even recognize him in it. He's so such a different character than you've ever seen him do. He's great. Um, but yeah, Vin Diesel. Vin Diesel also made video games for a little bit. He was like a started a game company.
SteveHe started a lot of companies.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Businessman.
MichelleI'm surprised he hasn't made himself a Vin Diesel app.
SteveRemember when he tried to become a pop star during COVID? Vin Diesel Brennan. Yes. Oh, Renner? Yeah, he put out two no, no, Vin Diesel Diesel. He put out he put out two songs, one of which he did highly recommend listeners and Luca to look up the video from the Kelly Clarkson show where he debuted his first single, where because it was the height of COVID, all of the audiences were TV screens with people on it filming via Zoom.
MichelleI only know about that song because this is so stupid, the thing I'm about to say. There is a photographer whose work I follow. Um, he is most famous for posting pictures of his dogs. And for a solid like three months, every single Instagram story that this photographer Andrew Knapp posted uh had the Vin Diesel song in the background. And just he's Vin Diesel Popstar's biggest supporter. And I was there to see nice pictures of his cute dogs.
SPEAKER_01And I love that. I guess nobody nobody tells Vin Diesel what to do. Vin Diesel decides what Vin Diesel wants to be at any given time.
MichelleThat's right.
SPEAKER_01Sometimes it's a pop star, sometimes it's a game designer, sometimes it's uh and nobody asks him to do these things.
MichelleNo.
SPEAKER_01He's self-directed.
MichelleHe's so driven.
SPEAKER_01He's very driven. He's really a he's a an admirable figure.
SPEAKER_06Um I wouldn't go back for it.
SPEAKER_01No, maybe not, maybe not. If if I add one thing to what I said before about just shitting on any kind of hopes and dreams that people might have about joining a workforce, I think like they're at a certain I mean, this is what I the impression I get from people who I know have had long careers doing things that they don't like, is that like you figure out what you like about it and then you fill your life with other things that are the things that you really enjoy about life and you kind of don't let your work spill into your life. Um and you find like fulfillment in it in a certain way. But otherwise, if you're the kind of person who like really feels like you need to be your work needs to be something that you love with people that you love, then you just have to kind of have high standards for yourself and just always be looking and just keep moving. And like you find a place you want to be, if you find a room you want to be in with people you want to be in, you just gotta really commit to like figuring out how to make yourself useful to them. Like what's what's your reason for being there? And it's not that like you become like a a tool, you build a friendship around loving what they love. And if if it's a room you want to be in, you better believe those people there like love being there too, or else they wouldn't be there. So it's about like bonding over something that you love and kind of like let that become your life. And like I will say, the last 10 years of my career, shooting NTB or doing any of the stuff I'm doing, it's been like a lot of work. Like, I definitely have a bit of like a work-life balance issue, as anyone in my life would probably tell me. But it's something that like I'm working on um and kind of like rediscovering kind of the simple things that I enjoy doing besides fucking around in in After Effects and like holding like hanging out with these guys with a camera.
MichelleWhat is the stuff that you feel like you're rediscovering recently?
SPEAKER_01Kind of just just hanging out with people who don't work in film, which I haven't done in a long time. And it's not like I hang out with them because they work in film, but it's they become like my best friends. Like we're just doing everything together. So, like, of course I'm spending all my time with them. But I kind of miss like being in film school and not being a filmmaker, just being someone who liked holding a camera, and none of my friends were interested in that. They all just wanted to play Minecraft and smoke weed, and I would just hang out with them. And it was like, in some ways, I'd never felt more bel like um part of a group, but also we were like a group of like uh misfits kind of. I don't know what I'm getting at. I guess I'm saying like expanding expanding types of people that you have in your life. That and like personal projects, which again, this is not helping the work-life balance thing, but doing things that are not like commissions or paid work, but doing things that are the reason I wanted to get into making in the first place.
SteveYeah. No, having friends that don't share your career really makes your life a lot better. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but you guys all do different things, more or less.
MichelleWe do. Kit and I met because we used to work together. Um, but even then we were doing different stuff in the same company, and that was a a while ago now. And it's nice that we've stuck together.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, those friendships you make with people at jobs, and then you break off and you do other things, but like there was somebody there that you really bonded with, and like they become like you become very special to each other. It's like you guys can see each other after years and just like catch up and feel like you're together again. It's some of the greatest friendships you can have. Yeah. Very special.
SteveYeah, a friend of mine um is a writer, and we we used to work in education together, and we both went into completely different fields. And that's that one person from that area, like that era in my life that I've kept in touch with. We're both doing drastically different things. And it's just that really nice thing. We had this shared experience, but our friendship is based on so much more, and it is a really beautiful type of friendship to have for sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they just like love you for you. They don't love you because you guys both love this job together. Yeah. They just like you. They love you in in spite of your circumstance under meeting.
SteveClumsy segue to the Goldeneye Tournament.
SPEAKER_01The tournament.
SteveSo this was a real tournament? It was a real we it was kind of edited together.
SPEAKER_01It was a real tournament at ANC Games. Everyone there besides uh Tom was uh uh someone who saw the flyer and came to the show, to the tournament, yeah.
SteveBecause those guys look very serious.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're all very serious. I mean, but also I don't think anyone there was a real speedrun professional. In fact, it's kind of funny that the speedrun tournament was t completely amateurs. Like nobody there would have considered themselves a speedrunner. I'm not sure why they came, but they just came because they wanted to play Goldeneye, I think, in like a with a with a group of people.
SteveWell with all due respect to you, Luca, who uh and what how you're spending your time this evening, but uh you get to be on my podcast is arguably the worst prize it is.
SPEAKER_01I'll take this as a I wish I wish you can get a little award for coming on this podcast. Like your friends. You send me a Shack Fu for this?
SteveYeah. You know what? I'll see if I can get you one. I can at the very least get you an adorable certificate.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I put that on my wall.
SteveI'm a comparative bit clearly low. Yeah, you came on this show.
MichelleUm but no, you guys you guys we're the number one film and TV podcast in Uruguay. That's true. Steve, thank you so much. We were at one point. I don't know if we can.
SPEAKER_06Is that true?
MichelleUh I I do Was that true? It was our first episode. That's amazing. I think that means that one person in Uruguay downloaded it. Maybe two.
SPEAKER_01And nobody else in Uruguay listens to any film and TV podcast. So you really did top the charts.
SteveYeah, apparently.
SPEAKER_01That's amazing.
SteveYeah, so um Jay's mainlining these fucking speed pills.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SteveAnd I do love that it doesn't make him hyper, it doesn't make him like like like bugging out of a seat. It just eventually overwhelms him.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he he just over amps and dies. Yeah. Just like the guy said he would. Um and he just plays better and better until he dies. That's what's that's what drugs do, kids.
MichelleYeah. They make you really, really good at video games. They make you really good at video games.
SPEAKER_01Maybe we did need those anti-drug PSAs for kids with this kind of messaging out there.
SteveYeah. Matt does the Fresh Prince thing. Yes, that that was that was who says drugs are bad.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that was that was one of the things that were in the script. That was always written. They Matt loved that ending. He loved the Fresh Prince reference. And I think it used to end with him getting thrown out of the hospital like uh sideways, like in that the end of that episode. I guess who gets thrown out? I think it's Will. Do you know the reference?
SteveDo you know the Yeah, Jazz getting thrown out the door?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Jazz, yeah. Yeah. I don't think that's in the end of the episode now, right? Is it?
SteveDepending on which version I watched, it is in one of them.
SPEAKER_01Hold on.
SteveMatt getting thrown out of the getting out of the hospital.
SPEAKER_01Maybe it is. See my memory.
SteveI think I saw him get thrown out of the hospital. I watched it earlier today.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, maybe it is. Let me see.
SteveBecause that and then the end credits. It says like produced by Matthew Miller in The Fresh Prince Brother.
MichelleIt is great. And then we get another one of these uh like lovely heartwarming scenes in the hospital, just like in the end of the blind side.
SPEAKER_01I know. They love that show.
SteveIt's so nice. Can we rewind? I talk about one line that well, two lines that really uh I've been thinking over for a couple days. One, the the commentator guy, uh says um, he's going through this like a hot knife through butter. Use your gun like a knife, which is arguably the worst commentating I've ever heard. It's so good.
SPEAKER_01It's so good. That's one of those like gems that Kurt or Rob found in the edit, and they just slip it in there. He really said that, but they took they used his basically this the dumbest thing he said. But that's that's kind of like I mean, there's only so many metaphors you can make when playing Goldeneye. I think uh you just reach the end, the bottom of the barrel.
MichelleWell, I think that's also like the nature of any commentating, whether it's like sports or video games or whatever, is you're just stream of consciousness saying things. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of like insane nonsense that gets said in commentary that just nobody's people are like half paying attention to.
SPEAKER_01Imagine a supercut of like the dumbest things said. This must exist in sports commentating.
SteveOh, for sure. Sorry, I have to do it. I have to do it. You must New York New York Mets corner. Um I try to only bring up the New York Mets once per episode. So um our broadcast booth, uh Gary, Keith, and Ron, is like widely considered like the best one because the worse the team plays, the more psychotic the commentary gets, because most people aren't talking it. And recently, Keith Hernandez short-circuited and just started naming Chinese food restaurants in New York City. It's like, uh, Joe Shanghai, Peking Ho. Like, what it's one of those things where they could be talking about anything, but he just completely short circuit and starts naming Chinese food restaurants he were he crashed out. It's so funny, and like that's why I love sports commentating so much. Because yeah, I on the Mets radio once at like I was driving home at like one in the morning and they were playing in Colorado, and you could tell the the guy was sleeping, he goes, Oh, that pitch went back and to the left. We call that a Zapruder hit, anyway. Oh my god. I almost had to pull over. I was laughing so hard at that one. The other line in this episode in that in the tournament is when Jay says we'll have a happy life together, and Matt's like, Did you say we'll have a happy life together? And it tugged at the heartstrings a little bit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SteveEverything Matt could have ever wanted.
SPEAKER_01That's Jay's subconscious slipping out, I guess, when he's on drugs. I love that line too.
SteveAnd the the post-credit scene is Matt and Jay on this podcast, and Jay's like obsessed with the musicians coming by. And the the guy's this is what it sounds like when you guys describe internet stuff I don't understand, or anime stuff. Because the guy's like, so uh this guy named Skibbity Bobo, and I'm like, that's exactly what you people sound like to me when you're talking about this stuff.
SPEAKER_01And it's also, yeah, anyone talking about internet people, which is like seems to be like everyone now. Everyone's an internet person with a silly name.
SteveThat's true. We stick with our first names and for now.
MichelleI think maybe when I become famous and evil, I'll pick a more interesting name to go by on the internet.
SPEAKER_00Why evil?
MichelleI just felt it's an interesting goal. I think. Yeah. I think the nature of fame is that it corrupts, and and so once I'm famous, I will inevitably become evil.
SPEAKER_01Michelle, you've got a dark side, don't you? You've got a little like buying speed and becoming rich and evil. You're climbing the corporate ladder.
SteveYeah, you clocked me. You don't know the half of it. She's the secret sicko of the podcast.
SPEAKER_00Clearly.
SteveSee, with me, what you see is what you get. With Michelle, evil under the surface. A dark labyrinth of terrible secrets. It's true. We're gonna find out you're a Long Island serial killer. You framed that guy. I'll never tell. Well, does anyone else have any final thoughts about the boost? What a good episode.
SPEAKER_01I was trying to remember how the original boost started, and I called Kurt and I called Jay, and neither of them could remember, so I found the original script because there was a big change. And it was just a switch in polarity, but everything was basically the same. In this version, in the final version, they're trying to get Jay to go fast. In the original, we were trying to get Jay to go slow. And I none of us could remember why we were trying to get Jay to go slow. And we had shot some of it already with Jay needing to go slow. We shot the tournament where Jay is slowing down while playing the tournament. And we shot the pharmacy where Matt's looking for something to slow Jay down. And I finally figured out when I looked at the script. It was because it started with Matt and Jay writing, they want to write a game FAQ, and they go sell it at A and C games. Then they see the Rivoli contest, speedrun. They go back, and Jay, they start doing like a training montage where Jay is speedrunning, practicing speedrunning, Goldeneye. Matt's training him with another game FAQ. And Jay gets so good and so fast, they're like, We're gonna win this tournament. We got it. We're gonna put we're gonna play the Rivoli. And then Jay goes on the piano, he's like, let's do a rehearsal. And Jay's playing piano so fast, he can't slow down. He's like, he's like a speed demon. And Matt can't keep up with him. And Matt's like, we're fucked. How are we gonna play the Rivoli? I can't keep up with him. But I can't slow him down. Like he needs, he needs he's gotta be fast to win the tournament. And they go play the tournament. Matt goes to the pharmacy and buys anything that would make Jay drowsy, make him sleepy, slow him down. And this episode is introduced that Jay has a candy addiction, apparently. And and a very convenient candy addiction. And Matt's like, I'll give you candy after you win the tournament, but only if you win. And he puts the candy in front of Jay. And we shot this with the candy in front of Jay, and Jay's secretly sneaking candy the whole time. And so Jay is playing the Goldeneye tournament but slowing himself down. And then he overamps and dies. But the reverse, he falls asleep on the ground. And it wasn't working, it wasn't feeling good because it wasn't-I think it just wasn't interesting to see Jay get slower and slower. Not as like the climax of the episode. And so we ended up rewriting it where we could keep that Jay is somehow eating drugs during the tournament, and that Matt goes to a pharmacy, and it became the episode that you guys see today where Jay actually slows down earlier. He slows down at the Act One break, basically, and then Matt buys drugs again, and it's like speed. So Tristan, our VFX guy, had to go in, or maybe it was our colorist, had to go in and change the pills from this beautiful pink of like the Benadryl to this nasty, like green beige that you guys see in the episode.
MichelleOh.
SPEAKER_01And it's a miracle that the like you would never see the seams in this. Like, this is an example of going back and creating something from the best bones of what was something else. And I think what the episode became is so much better than what it was written as. And you kind of only discover that by doing it and by trying it, and by like kind of committing that you you will do it again until it's good. And so, like, yeah, there's kind of like an un I mean, every episode, basically everything you ever see from Nirvana the Band started off entirely different, and then the best bones of it were made into the final product that you guys see now, and was is better for it. So it's like a patchwork.
SteveThat's fascinating.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's like um it's a beautiful process.
SteveAnd even the gag pays off better because like Jay gets so amped that he passes out and the woman's like, Well, that was a great golden eye speed. But you just think the live stream is still going with him like dead on the floor.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's fun. I love doing the show because like constantly you're amazed by it kind of like the ingenuity of the people that you're working with and the creative problem solving that everyone has to do. And is everyone's always so proud to show anything that they do on that they do on this show, whether it's Kurt with an edit or Jared showing a shot on his camera, kind of turning the L C D screen around and pressing play on the top of the on the top of the camera. It's really fun.
MichelleThat's so great. That's so nice to have such like a wonderful, like supportive, everyone's excited for each other all the time. Creative environment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we get excited. It's fun, it keeps us going. And I hope uh Nirvana the band keeps you guys going for all the rest of time. How long you can do this podcast?
SteveUh at the very least, until we uh Matt and Jay uh show up and tell us we have to end it, or we get to the end of all of Matt's films.
MichelleYeah. Well, and then we'll have to do season three when it comes out.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, you guys can't end because of season three.
MichelleI think we've got a long list of things to keep us busy until season three is out.
SPEAKER_01I hope you do get the canon arm though.
MichelleOh, thank you. Michelle, you should write with your fake child. Sure.
SPEAKER_01Try a different child.
MichelleYeah. Yeah. I'll invent a new child to reach out to the Canadian Space Agency. May make a disease. They're dying. And then talk to the Canada. Make a wish foundation. Yeah. I would like to speak to the arm. They're just gonna call you and go.
SteveThat works for me.
SPEAKER_01I wonder if the arm could write on a whiteboard.
SteveThat would be delightful. I think it could. It is not out of the realm of reality that I commit to a 30-minute bit where I pretend to be the arm on this podcast.
KitDon't threaten me with a good time.
SPEAKER_01You do all the sound effects.
SteveYou already wanted me to do Billy Crystal for an entire episode. I did not want you to do that. Michelle did.
MichelleThat was me. That was my request.
SteveBut I'm gonna ask Michelle's favorite question today. Luca, do you have anything to plug?
SPEAKER_01Anything to plug? Well, it's a very leading question.
SteveI mean, the book.
SPEAKER_01Sure, yeah, the photo book. It's a really beautiful not to uh to praise it too much, but like I'm I'm very proud of it. It's photos that I've shot from 2015 to 20, just the beginning of 2026. So about 10 years of photos, that were just it was just kind of me like having a camera around on set and just kind of shooting my friends in a way I wanted. And then when the movie was coming out, I started thinking about them and how I could put them together into a sort of photo book like the ones that I kind of love the most, which there are a few I have that were huge inspiration about the kind of sensibility in like pairings and in almost like making jokes with the pairings and very subtle, quiet kind of humor. Um and I uh could say that it has been way more successful than I thought it was ever gonna be, which was a great surprise. And I don't think is even I can't give myself that credit. That goes to the fans being so like just loving these guys and this project like so much that um they want kind of like everything that they can see of them in any form that they can. And this book's got like, yeah, it's like a big, beautiful collection of like very personal photos. I think it's great. And uh you could find it probably if you just Google Nirvana the Band photo book.
SteveWe really appreciate the time you spend hanging out with us tonight.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thank you guys so much. This is so cool. It's it's quite an honor to talk to you guys.
MichelleIt's so fun to have you on and to get all this behind the scenes lore and I don't know what the experience is like hearing about this stuff.
SPEAKER_01I just figure like like all of us have such a such an inside baseball kind of perspective that almost like any stories we tell about the show are interesting because nobody knows them. I hope you guys found this interesting. Um, no.
SteveSuper boring. To be like super duper sincere for a minute, like my favorite type of conversation is when people deeply give a shit about something, and I don't care like what it is. So like you showing up and and spending your time talking about this thing that you clearly really care about has been wonderful. And even in my personal life, my favorite conversations are like I don't even care what the topic is. Like if somebody really, really cares, I love hearing you know their thoughts.
SPEAKER_01Me too. About every podcast I listen to and like every conversation in real life I genuinely enjoy is like talking about someone about talking to someone about something that they get fired up about. When you're talking to someone who doesn't give a shit about it, about what they're talking about, it's you just want to get out of there. Um but the exact opposite is true. When you're talking to someone about something they love, you kind of want to be there forever. It doesn't matter what it is.
Steve110%.
SPEAKER_01I guess a couple more things I would plug. We're doing a new movie that you guys might have heard about, this Vice movie with uh Finn Wolfhard and others, and it's gonna be kind of wicked. Like we're all shot listing it and writing it and doing early production stuff, pre-production. We're getting very close to shooting it, and a we're a phrase that keeps getting said is that this might be the best thing we've ever done. Oh wow. Although I will like it's a bit hyperbole, and that gets said about everything that we do in sequential order of when we're doing them. So take that with a grain of salt. But it's uh it's maybe the one of the biggest things we've ever done, and it's such a Toronto story, too. It's another if you guys haven't gotten sick of seeing uh real streets of Toronto, this will be one for you. Um yeah, there's that. The Nirvana of the band, the Blu-ray. There's a new Blu-ray coming out. Um that I mean and Jared are doing DVD menus for it that we're very, very proud of.
SteveI miss a DVD menu.
SPEAKER_01Oh, dude, you're gonna love this menu. This is like, you're gonna be tickled pink. Um I don't I've never used that phrase in my life, but I use it this time. Yeah, it's really fun. It's like it's kind of a it's very ambitious. In fact, we have to keep convincing the authoring company that it it is possible if we just really try.
MichelleI'm so excited to find out what that means. Can't wait to see this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it'll be fun. And uh yeah, that's it. I mean, keep like if you guys if you like our stuff, like just look out for anything that we're doing. Um, because you'll know there's a lot of love put into it.
SteveYeah, yeah. Looking forward to it. Thanks, guys. Thank you again. We do a silly little sign-off. You're welcome to join in if you like at the end of this one, but nothing like a good feeling.
SPEAKER_01Nothing like a good feeling.
SteveNothing like a good feeling.
KitNothing like a good feeling.
SteveSee you next time. Thank you for listening to Nirvana the band The Show the Podcast. We'd love to hear from you. You can email us or send a voice memo to nirvana the pod at gmail.com. And we're also on Blue Sky and Instagram at NirvanaThePod. Our website is nirvana the pod.com. Our show is edited by Kit with additional help by John. Special thanks to Anne Meadows for our logo. Oh, and Matt and Jay, if you're listening, we'd love to have you on the show.